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39 minutes ago, yesbut said:

Hmmmmmmmm.....

can you you read this

most people can but you may be one of the few humans who struggle

i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno’t mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghi t pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! if you can raed tihs forwrad it.

 

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I see that the link to the submissions on the Risk Analysis(RA) for the Importation of Carnica semen from Germany and Austria was posted on this Forum.   Remember first that this was 2003, but it does

This image is from 2005 when I was at the F3 stage with the carnica semen importations.  This Queen is 87.5% carnica, and is sort of the bee I am headed back to with our new Kiwi Cross population that

Local selection of local bees leads to greater production, less costs, less losses and helps to retain genetic diversity and genetic improvements that have been bred by local beekeepers for generation

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23 hours ago, kaihoka said:

can you you read this

most people can but you may be one of the few humans who struggle

i cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid, aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it dseno’t mtaetr in waht oerdr the ltteres in a wrod are, the olny iproamtnt tihng is taht the frsit and lsat ltteer be in the rghi t pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it whotuit a pboerlm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Azanmig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt! if you can raed tihs forwrad it.

 

That kind of blew my mind, how easy that was to read. But if you look hard , its burbleO.o

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What we had before carniolans were brought in was Italians and AMM where we had a stable hybrid which were predominantly yellow in color but were a cross of good qualities of both AMM and Italian. 

We have to look at doing the same with carniolan also where we look at adding the good qualities of carniolan also into our existing hybrid and stabilising them.

 

No matter what we called our bees we had before, they were hybrids. Just because we liked them does not make them a specific race. They were just bees bred by us to suite our needs and removed all the characteristics which we did not like. The color was more yellow which made us call them Italian. That's all. 

 

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I don't agree, you are making it sound like the queens bred before the carny introduction were a mix with AMM being a big part of that.

If AMM had any part in the queens bred by beekeepers trying to keep their queens as pure yellow as possible it was a tiny fraction.

Around these parts AMM was generally found out in the bush and not on the plains where the mating yards were located.

Yes AMM was in the mix but and could even be dominant if you weren't bothered but anyone who cared wouldn't select their breeding stock from anything that showed AMM characteristics.

 

NZ has had many generations of queens being bred by selecting the best queens from predominantly Italian stock @David Yankewhat were you breeding before Carniolans? And what traits/characteristics did you select for? 

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Well said Jose, I see from your posts that you have been working with hybrids for a while now. I guess we all are- virtually every production Queen we produce now will head a hybrid colony.  While I hated losing control of our mating areas, I have come to accept that this is the new reality, and it isn't a bad thing- these hybrid colonies while a little bit all over the place are generally a good, vigorous, productive bee.  As you said, these racial hybrids will keep stabilising with time, and will work well for beekeepers.  BUT, it is still crucial that the  2 Closed Populations Programs that we have keep doing what they do- that is maintaining and improving  the populations they are working with.  The Closed Population breeding model  is the only  breeding model which lets a breeder effectively apply selection pressure, and that can lead to significant stock improvement,  and the model  slows  the loss of genetic variation  that results from applying selection pressure.  

 

The Closed Population Breeding Model is quite simple.  It is described as closed because the matings are controlled using Instrumental Insemination, nothing can come in unless you let it.  It is basic line breeding, but to limit the loss of variation a large number of breeders has to be used for each generation. We use at least 25 breeders- with 25 breeders there is a theoretical program lifespan of more than 20 years.  Virgins are reared from each of the selected breeders, and drones are raised.  Semen is collected in as close to equal volume from each of the  25 sources, that semen is pooled(homogenised), and each of the virgins is inseminated with this homogenised semen- the cool thing about that, is that each virgin gets an identical dose of this super semen, and the result is that when evaluating the colonies, any variation you identify is maternal in origin  which means your evaluations are more effective.  Any way,  I don't want to get too long winded about this, but if you go to our website-  www.queenbees.co.nz  - there are some old articles I wrote that go into more detail about this, and why honey bees are so resistant to stock improvement efforts.

 

 

 

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We are lucky in our area all the commercial queen rearers  are using Italian queens as their breeding stock and all the commercial beekeepers in the immediate area of mating yards also use Italian stock.

I'm sure there will be some hobbyists trying Carnies but not enough at this stage to make too much of a difference.

 

 

 

 

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I worked with yellow bees from the early 80's.  I gathered yellow foundation stock from all over NZ.  Managed the  NZBGIG program(similar in structure to BettaBees with 25 commercial shareholders) through the 90's.  Then in 2004, when I was about to transition to a carnica type bee, BettaBees was born, and I played a part.  They gathered foundation stock, mostly from the South Island, and for the first 2 generations I went down with pooled semen from my Closed Yellow Population, and did the inseminations, so by the time the BettaBees Population was closed off it was 75% Daykel Italians.  They have gone on from there, and have done a good job maintaining and improving that population, they have carefully screened in some new material over the years.

 

When they were screening the foundation stock for Bettabees, some of the supposed Italian stock that was being donated  was close to 50% A.m.m., so @frazzledfozzle , your Italians are probably not as Italian as you think. I can check that for you if you want.  Yellow is a very dominant body colour so they can have a significant degree of hybridisation before they start to show it.  I know  F1 Italian X Carnica crosses would still be considered by most to look Italian.   

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2 hours ago, Jose Thayil said:

We have to look at doing the same with carniolan also where we look at adding the good qualities of carniolan also into our existing hybrid and stabilising them.

buckfast breeders have tried that and the results have always been discarded, so good luck with that.

haven't heard anyone here yet announcing a pleasant outcome.

 

34 minutes ago, David Yanke said:

We use at least 25 breeders- with 25 breeders there is a theoretical program lifespan of more than 20 years.

well, that's just great. what's the fuzz about the need for an other import then?

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51 minutes ago, David Yanke said:

I worked with yellow bees from the early 80's.  I gathered yellow foundation stock from all over NZ.  Managed the  NZBGIG program(similar in structure to BettaBees with 25 commercial shareholders) through the 90's.  

 

When they were screening the foundation stock for Bettabees, some of the supposed Italian stock that was being donated  was close to 50% A.m.m., so @frazzledfozzle , your Italians are probably not as Italian as you think. I can check that for you if you want.  Yellow is a very dominant body colour so they can have a significant degree of hybridisation before they start to show it.  I know  F1 Italian X Carnica crosses would still be considered by most to look Italian.   

 

i did know of your past breeding experience I was interested to know how you would describe you Italian bees of the past now that they are being called hybrids. It's interesting see you calling them yellow bees rather than Italian as you had done before now.

 

its not just the queen that has to be yellow it's equally important her drones are all yellow if she's throwing dark drones she won't be used as a breeder because she's got some AMM or Carnie going on as well. 

i would be more than happy for you to check out the "degree of hybridisation" 

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@frazzledfozzle Italians is just a lazy term, as is yellow, more  accurately we should say Italian type, but the term Pure Italian just is not accurate.  My Italian population was a closed population, and I used morphometric testing  to move the population as far away from A.m.m. as possible, so it was very Italian type.  They were very yellow bees.  I know I am  making this a matter of semantics, but  I am just fighting  back  a bit at the racism that seems to prevail on this forum- that view being, Italians are amazing, carniolans and their hybrids are bad, and that their importation into  NZ was the worst idea ever, and brought disease and pestilence to our industry.  I am glad that you are proud of the  bees you run, and I love  Italian type bees as well, but  our yellow commercial bee stocks were not up to the battle we face with Varroa, and that battle is only going to get  tougher as we move into the future.   Carnica are certainly not the perfect bee, and I like inform critical comment, but some of you on this forum are hyper critical, and that criticism is not based on experience working with carnica type bees.

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51 minutes ago, David Yanke said:

Carnica are certainly not the perfect bee, and I like inform critical comment, but some of you on this forum are hyper critical, and that criticism is not based on experience working with carnica type bees.

100% agree.  It's a pity some obviously talented beekeepers don't give them a go rather than shudder and object loudly at the mention of a "non yellow" type of bee.  If for whatever reason they don't work for them at least then they would have some basis for their argument.

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1 hour ago, David Yanke said:

@frazzledfozzle Italians is just a lazy term, as is yellow, more  accurately we should say Italian type, but the term Pure Italian just is not accurate.  My Italian population was a closed population, and I used morphometric testing  to move the population as far away from A.m.m. as possible, so it was very Italian type.  They were very yellow bees.  I know I am  making this a matter of semantics, but  I am just fighting  back  a bit at the racism that seems to prevail on this forum- that view being, Italians are amazing, carniolans and their hybrids are bad, and that their importation into  NZ was the worst idea ever, and brought disease and pestilence to our industry.  I am glad that you are proud of the  bees you run, and I love  Italian type bees as well, but  our yellow commercial bee stocks were not up to the battle we face with Varroa, and that battle is only going to get  tougher as we move into the future.   Carnica are certainly not the perfect bee, and I like inform critical comment, but some of you on this forum are hyper critical, and that criticism is not based on experience working with carnica type bees.

 

Is there any scientific evidence available on the productivity / varroa resilience / temperament etc of the NZ carniolans v other representative samples of NZ's Italian types? Or, is any comparison more anecdotal / field based?  Ta

 

 

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I have never claimed that my Italians are pure, just that they were the best tempered and most productive hives I could breed for this area. I have always brought in the odd Queen from outside for diversity and I did try some of David's Italians and to be honest can see why he changed to carniolan. It's not just David's queens, I have never had satisfactory queens from anywhere north of Rotorua (there may be some) I have very limited experience with pure carniolan's but do not like the hybrids and I have beekeeper friends who have talked about leaving the industry because they are just so sick of being stung when working carniolan's and carniolan crosses. Different strains of bees react differently in different environments. The average production of my hives has been going up steadily for the last 50 years, all my commercial hives are palletised and uniformity is very important when running hives on pallets. Hybrids do not suit the sort of beekeeping but are being forced upon me.

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7 minutes ago, john berry said:

all my commercial hives are palletised

Ive been thinking about this john as its not the first time you have mentioned it.

A pallet group of 4 hives will I assume have one entrance to per pallet side.
This is bound to reduce drift.
Could this actually be a very good way to keep Bees?

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@john berry , Wow, that was a bit nasty, and extreme.  Sounded a lot like your uncle in the 90's,  until he started working with Carniolans and now he buys more breeders off of me then any one else.  I never accused you of anything- I think you are just a bit too sensitive about this topic, so I think we should drop it.  Each to their own.

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1 hour ago, Philbee said:

A pallet group of 4 hives will I assume have one entrance to per pallet side.

I have noticed you NZ'ers do tend to standardise more than we do but in these parts that would not be a particularly good assumption.

I've seen 4-hive pallets with hives back-to-back and with all 4 facing the same direction (so two facing into the backs of the other two) and many years ago using a gantry rather than forklift; 4, 6 or 8 facing the same direction but have not actually seen them facing 4 different directions (not that there'd be anything wrong with that :-) )

 

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2 hours ago, john berry said:

I have never claimed that my Italians are pure, just that they were the best tempered and most productive hives I could breed for this area. I have always brought in the odd Queen from outside for diversity and I did try some of David's Italians and to be honest can see why he changed to carniolan. It's not just David's queens, I have never had satisfactory queens from anywhere north of Rotorua (there may be some) I have very limited experience with pure carniolan's but do not like the hybrids and I have beekeeper friends who have talked about leaving the industry because they are just so sick of being stung when working carniolan's and carniolan crosses. Different strains of bees react differently in different environments. The average production of my hives has been going up steadily for the last 50 years, all my commercial hives are palletised and uniformity is very important when running hives on pallets. Hybrids do not suit the sort of beekeeping but are being forced upon me.

Your comments in regard to Davids Italians seems a bit harsh.  His reputation as a supplier of quality queens is unsurpassed by any other breeder in NZ.  As you say some strains react differently in different environments.  How do Bettabees genetics perform in Hawkes Bay??  Did they not originate from Daykel Italians??  So if you are saying your average per hive production has been steadily going up you are obviously not being affected by the overstocking in Hawkes Bay?

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2 hours ago, frazzledfozzle said:

Along with @CraBee I would also like to see the evidence to back up the statement about Carniolans in NZ being more varroa tolerant than Italians.

 

Italians work for us and for what we do, We aren't  going to bring in any other type of bee to " try them out" because it will stuff up what we already have.

 

 

 

 

Sooner or later you will experience hybrids.  Surprised Carnis haven't crept into your area already.

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