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I appreciate your support, but I am afraid that the one thing I have been reminded about with my brief foray back into the Forum over the last couple days, is just how futile all this discussion is because all of us have our thoughts and opinions well set in concrete- I think I will beat a hasty retreat!

The people who join the discussion my have their thoughts set in concrete but there are a lot of us who just do not know and want to keep reading all sides of the argument .

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I see that the link to the submissions on the Risk Analysis(RA) for the Importation of Carnica semen from Germany and Austria was posted on this Forum.   Remember first that this was 2003, but it does

This image is from 2005 when I was at the F3 stage with the carnica semen importations.  This Queen is 87.5% carnica, and is sort of the bee I am headed back to with our new Kiwi Cross population that

Local selection of local bees leads to greater production, less costs, less losses and helps to retain genetic diversity and genetic improvements that have been bred by local beekeepers for generation

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ΑΛΛΑ ΠΡΟΪΟΝΤΑ

2-3000 queens from Greece annually exported into NZ? F*** ME! (excuse me for the expression)

 

Buriyng your head in the sand, doesn't solve your real problems

 

(BTW, for the moment I am also against bee imports in NZ, but for different reasons. And not like many beeks out there, who are against only because it's not them who is importing)

 

i have to say this is the most extreme statement i've ever come across.

is everyone else assuming this is a hoax or why is there only one comment from @tommy dave ?

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On 15.08.2017 г. at 1:25 PM, tom sayn said:

 

....

is everyone else assuming this is a hoax .....?

Ok, the website is a bit outdated and they hadn't managet to remove that part from it, yet. But I believe at some point there was some truth in that statement.

 

I don't see the world in black and white. Criminalizing the use of marijuana ( or alcohol for that matter) won't stop the people from abusing with it.

The guy importing genetics LEGALY and trying to CONTRIBUTE to the sectory is not the enemy. Nothing wrong in making a living from it meanwhile. The real enemy are the guys who are after more profit no matter what, even if that means to kill  their neighbour's hives, let alone care if by smuggling queens they might introduce new pathogens ( you need brains for that).

 

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There are probably as many supporters of carniolan's on this forum as there are people against it and I certainly wouldn't like David to think I have something against him personally because I don't. I have spent a lifetime developing a strain of predominantly Italian bees which are quiet, productive, very conservative with honey stores, genetically suited to the local environment and reasonably wasp resistant. AMM was always a problem but had largely been eliminated and varoa took care of the last few and then suddenly we have a totally different strain of bee which unfortunately has aggressive hybrids. 10 years ago I could quite happily leave over 80% of my hives to raise their own Queen if I was short of cells. Now it would be a lot less than 50%. I cannot believe the seaman was not tested for viruses and I also find it hard to credit that it was allowed in at all considering the area it came from was very close to an experimental population of Cape bees. The wider beekeeping population had no say in the importation of carniolan's there hybrids are nasty and as such more dangerous than existing bee stocks which inevitably means more people will be stung leading to more hospitalisation and  increasing the risk of a fatality. Frankly if we had to import anything I would have thought Buckfast were a better bet.

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I'm also not against David personally but to come into a discussion and only make 3-4 posts before giving up is being a bit precious in my opinion.

i don't know why David feels that it's not OK for others to have a different opinion to himself.

if those of us trying to keep our queens as pure to Italian as possible just gave up and said Nah it doesn't matter, is that a good thing?  I don't think it is . 

Many beekeepers these days don't seem to care what kind of queen they have in their hives, anything will do. But for me and my personal satisfaction it's Italian all the way.

 

We we have enough diversity in our bees right now we don't need to take the risk of anything nasty being brought in to NZ.

 

@Dave Black I find it very interesting your comment that DWV was tested for and NOT found in 2003.  What does that say to the people who's theory is it's  either always being here or it was brought in on varroa ?

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I have Italian's that are open mated and the hive temperament is fine.  I agree though that next generation crosses / hybrids can start to get bad tempered as they get darker, they are always my hottest hives by a long way.  

 

I am interested in learning more about the Carny's.  Maybe they are a better bee for productivity, temperament and disease resilience - I just don't know.

 

I couldn't run a yard though where there was a mix of Queen types, build up is different, and especially around swarming time the darker bees seem ready to go earlier (or mine do anyway...).  

 

 

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3 hours ago, john berry said:

 

 

1 minute ago, CraBee said:

I have Italian's that are open mated and the hive temperament is fine.  I agree though that next generation crosses / hybrids can start to get bad tempered as they get darker, they are always my hottest hives by a long way.  

 

I am interested in learning more about the Carny's.  Maybe they are a better bee for productivity, temperament and disease resilience - I just don't know.

 

I couldn't run a yard though where there was a mix of Queen types, build up is different, and especially around swarming time the darker bees seem ready to go earlier (or mine do anyway...).  

 

 

Ive got used to a cross bred bee.

The different buildup times can be a challenge though.

Ive just got in from a 40km round trip to feed just one monster yellow hive.

The 19 others in the site are all bubbling along on their 50/50 but this yellow one is low on stores and going hand to mouth 6 lts of syrup at a time.
Its currently 2 boxes full and I should have put another on but didnt have one.
 

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There's no good info button?

That's a very interesting read @Dave Black

 

If anyone's interested in the submissions made on the carny semen importation this is also an interesting read especially in light of the damage bee viruses are doing to bees in NZ and also the thinking behind MAF's approval of the importation doesn't actually fill me with confidence 

 

https://mpi.govt.nz/document-vault/2786

 

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On 8/17/2017 at 1:28 PM, john berry said:

I cannot believe the seaman was not tested for viruses and I also find it hard to credit that it was allowed in at all considering the area it came from was very close to an experimental population of Cape bees

Can you expand more on this as to what was the experiment for and the outcome and what happened to the bees after that please. 

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On 8/17/2017 at 9:15 PM, frazzledfozzle said:

 

Just a few thoughts.

Dont specific traits relating to adaptions to an environment eg Extreme hygienic behavior (Varroa tolerance ) across a population and "Genetic Diversity"

work against each other?

Eg, Aboriginal tribes survive due to their  specifically adapted Homozygous gene pool.

 

Are we heading then for a possible Monsanto model of annual Hybrid Queens bred  on islands and supplied to the peasant masses, possibly on a quota basis

Just wondering

 

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, yesbut said:

I thought we already had those Queens, at $gazillion ?

This is the Question

Is there any such thing as a true breeding Varroa tolerant Queen or even a line of Queens with a reasonable hit rate for Varroa tolerance.

This is a fundamental question in relation to a rationale for importing new genetics.
MPI are used to dealing with cows and sheep which are highly genetically manipulable 

To make the assumption that bees are the same is a huge mistake

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what i don't like about the presence of the 2 breeds is that it counteracts genetic diversity.

(i assume here that most of you understands why there is no - and most likely will never be-  an italianxcarnie breeder queen on the market.)

 

if we would have stuck with what we had, italian with a bit of amm in the background, it would have allowed for every beekeeper to act as a breeder. this way diversity can unfold. the nations bee would have been on a much  healthier foundation.

you would have big breeders still using AI and supplying big commercials with their genetic choice, but also plenty of small breeders, call them want to be breeders if you want, using open mating only.

basically breeding of those hives that did well under their circumstances.

"cororappa" is a great example why this is so important.

through dynamic breeding there is a feed back from the local environment into selection. this progress is passed on to the next generation only if we continue to breed from the new successful generation. if we go back to who ever supplies us with breeder queens every year there can be no progress. having 2 separate breeds clashing with heterosis effects into this selection process is ruining all progress.

 

an other disadvantage of the 2 separate breeds is breeding programs.  any future breeding program that we hopefully will have one day has to make a choice. carnie or italian, and the fruits of that breeding program can only be  to one breed. obviously a huge obstetrical for any funding.

 

my objection is not against the carnies, but against running the 2 breeds parallel.

personally i could bring myself to abandon the the italian in favor for carnis if that was the nations choice.

but i believe we are far better off to stick with the old breed.

it's true that the carnies are a good be. but if it comes to genetic diversity you will find that they have undergone a selective pressure like no other bee and that since many decades. don't be fooled by thinking you could escape the incest by hopping over the border to an other eu country. the exchange of genetic material between carni breeders is intense. it has to be to escape incest. and not before long we will have to import again.

 

 

 

 

 

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