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as far as genetic diversity goes, if i look through my hives in search for an potential italian breeder, i can rule out 98% because of carnie hybrid issues.

for many amateur breeders (and also professionals) it used to be a very rewording thing to have your own goals to select to and since all was based on open mating, inbreeding was not an issue really.

 

but this option has been taken of most beekeepers now since there is hardly an area that is not compromised by carnies.

the consequence is that all those who used to increase diversity by doing a bit their own thing are now staying close to someone who supplies them regular with artificial inseminated stock. i really can't see how that's helping with genetic diversity.

 

for the carnies it was always the way that unless they were close to the source (which is you) they were hybrids.

so after 13 years the genetics of the carnies and italians still can't be merged in a pleasant way, at least not in a way that you would breed from them. therefore genetically the import has made us poorer, not more diverse.

 

i assume unless there is an other import soon, the carnies are steering in a bit of end of the road situation, since there's only that much combinations you can do before inbreeding becomes a problem.

i know it sound harsh, but maybe time to consider if we wouldn't be better off without carnies in the long run?

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I see that the link to the submissions on the Risk Analysis(RA) for the Importation of Carnica semen from Germany and Austria was posted on this Forum.   Remember first that this was 2003, but it does

This image is from 2005 when I was at the F3 stage with the carnica semen importations.  This Queen is 87.5% carnica, and is sort of the bee I am headed back to with our new Kiwi Cross population that

Local selection of local bees leads to greater production, less costs, less losses and helps to retain genetic diversity and genetic improvements that have been bred by local beekeepers for generation

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What does it matter anyway? DWV would of likely came here sooner or later, just how all the other Varroa related viruses did. You can't tell me they all came over with that one importation of semen? Chances are, there has been more than one illegal importation of bees over the years.

it does matter in that respect that DWV (nor nosema c) obviously was not considered a mayor risk at the time of importation, though it should have been.

shows that after you are always smarter as to the time of importation.

what are we missing right now that will be a big threat in 5 years?

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it does matter in that respect that DWV (nor nosema c) obviously was not considered a mayor risk at the time of importation, though it should have been.

shows that after you are always smarter as to the time of importation.

what are we missing right now that will be a big threat in 5 years?

 

OMG, Thank god our export markets are not as paranoid as you. Remember our industry relies on fair access to our export markets. Free and fair trade is a 2 way street, and we put that at risk if we view all imports with a paranoid, fortress mentality, while at the same time expect other countries to welcome our exports with open arms.

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OMG, Thank god our export markets are not as paranoid as you. Remember our industry relies on fair access to our export markets. Free and fair trade is a 2 way street, and we put that at risk if we view all imports with a paranoid, fortress mentality, while at the same time expect other countries to welcome our exports with open arms.

this argument is ridiculous in its extremity, this argument would allow import of live cattle from argentina - foot and mouth? whatever, caring about that is displaying 'paranoid, fortress mentality'.

 

All imports of biological material, or new organisms, should be assessed for risks. And if nil benefit is anticipated, then even a miniscule risk enough to halt the import.

maybe we could stick to the two points at hand:

1 - whether genetic diversity of bees is an issue in nz (comprised of two parts, is there a lack of diversity, and, if so, are there any associated issues with that)

2 - risks of importation of bee material - genetic or otherwise

 

it's fairly clear internationally that the only real varroa resistance is associated with swarm/escape (i.e. outrunning the problem) found in africanised bee populations. I'd hope that it would be unanimous that importing these particular strains would be a disaster...

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OMG, Thank god our export markets are not as paranoid as you. Remember our industry relies on fair access to our export markets. Free and fair trade is a 2 way street, and we put that at risk if we view all imports with a paranoid, fortress mentality, while at the same time expect other countries to welcome our exports with open arms.

we put our export market at risk because we don't import more carnie semen? get real!

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OMG, Thank god our export markets are not as paranoid as you. Remember our industry relies on fair access to our export markets. Free and fair trade is a 2 way street, and we put that at risk if we view all imports with a paranoid, fortress mentality, while at the same time expect other countries to welcome our exports with open arms.

Thankyou David for providing a balanced and educated view on the whole genetic importation issue.

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this argument is ridiculous in its extremity, this argument would allow import of live cattle from argentina - foot and mouth? whatever, caring about that is displaying 'paranoid, fortress mentality'.

 

All imports of biological material, or new organisms, should be assessed for risks. And if nil benefit is anticipated, then even a miniscule risk enough to halt the import.

maybe we could stick to the two points at hand:

1 - whether genetic diversity of bees is an issue in nz (comprised of two parts, is there a lack of diversity, and, if so, are there any associated issues with that)

2 - risks of importation of bee material - genetic or otherwise

 

it's fairly clear internationally that the only real varroa resistance is associated with swarm/escape (i.e. outrunning the problem) found in africanised bee populations. I'd hope that it would be unanimous that importing these particular strains would be a disaster...

 

All trade in primary products is based on Health Certification Requirements agreed to by both the importing and exporting countries, and these requirements or Standards are based on analysing the risks associated with that particular trade, that is how free and fair trade works, and that is why we don't have live cattle coming in from Argentina, or live bees coming in from anywhere. A paranoid fortress mentality doesn't fairly look at the risks and how we can mitigate those risks, it just declares no risk is worth taking, and even worries about risks that don't even exist yet, like Tom said, 'what are we missing right now that will be a big threat in 5 years?'.

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All trade in primary products is based on Health Certification Requirements agreed to by both the importing and exporting countries, and these requirements or Standards are based on analysing the risks associated with that particular trade, that is how free and fair trade works, and that is why we don't have live cattle coming in from Argentina, or live bees coming in from anywhere. A paranoid fortress mentality doesn't fairly look at the risks and how we can mitigate those risks, it just declares no risk is worth taking, and even worries about risks that don't even exist yet, like as Tom said, 'what are we missing right now that will be a big threat in 5 years?'.

David, perhaps you could give us some thoughts of the potential gains to the industry of further imports and where they could potentially come from?? This may help allay the fears of the paranoid!!

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The only thing the Te Ara encyclopaedia page demonstrates is that we did not test for it before 2007.

@Otto there were three samples tested taken in 2003. DWV was not found. (RT-PCR/electrophoresis, Olga Berenyi et al, Applied & Environmental Microbiology (2007) doi:10.1128/AEM.00696-07). Have you come across that?

There was a discussion about the origin of DWV here: The spread of DWV

 

 

I always enjoy the irony of local beekeepers bemoaning imports and trade.

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A few weeks ago I was talking with an "ex bee breeder" , if there ever is such a thing, and commented that this year we would be grafting from one of the Betta queens. His comment was, 'well thats great, but the genetics get diluted quite quickly when out in the real world." Meaning, I guess, that with no control over the drones it is really just a free for all as to who ends up on welfare.

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Considering the quality of some of the beekeeping operations that have been sprouting up over the last few years and the influence that they, along with packers and landowners, are having on the industry thinking about possible issues 5 years down the line might be the minimum that we can do. I'm all for scientific research being done on possible future imports but would prefer that to be balanced against an ultra conservative 'siege' mentality. I've worked overseas and have been horrified by the way that they treat their bees, animals and their environment. I't sure isn't perfect here but those who have a love for bees surely don't want to be taking any risks that will result in more pests/viruses and the increased need for chemicals and treatment that comes with them.... some of us will still be here after the manuka bubble has burst and those looking for a fast buck have gone looking for the next rainbow.

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I would like to say, it takes a lot of guts (or stupidity ;)) for David Yanke joining the conversation. Thank you!

 

 

 

 

If DWV arrived with varroa why did it take so long to show up in hives? I would have thought it would show up at the same time because that was when a lot of hives were getting high numbers of varroa.

 

 

 

Varroa changed the virus transmission. Some time is needed for the virus variants to evolve. Pre varroa - the more bening the virus - the higher chanse of survival/transmission it had. Varroa was a game changer, selecting for the ones who replicate faster.

 

In the old days I had seen hives with 3 mites per bee on average (300% infestation!) and no visible sympthoms of DWV or weakening of the hives. What is the mite treshold now - 2-3%?

 

 

I hope the government doesn't allow any more imports of honey bee genetics it's too big a dice to roll in my opinion.

 

 

 

.......There is no doubt that importation of bees also led to the importation of disease with the most recent case being chalk brood which was brought in with the illegal importation of European queens into the tepuke area......

 

ΑΛΛΑ ΠΡΟΪΟΝΤΑ

2-3000 queens from Greece annually exported into NZ? F*** ME! (excuse me for the expression)

 

Buriyng your head in the sand, doesn't solve your real problems

 

(BTW, for the moment I am also against bee imports in NZ, but for different reasons. And not like many beeks out there, who are against only because it's not them who is importing)

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David, perhaps you could give us some thoughts of the potential gains to the industry of further imports and where they could potentially come from?? This may help allay the fears of the paranoid!!

 

I appreciate your support, but I am afraid that the one thing I have been reminded about with my brief foray back into the Forum over the last couple days, is just how futile all this discussion is because all of us have our thoughts and opinions well set in concrete- I think I will beat a hasty retreat!

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bullet.jpg QUEEN BEES

The two New Zealanders have undertaken the queen bee production for the Cooperative. Unfortunately, the Cooperative presents a deficit in this sector, given that this production does not cover the needs of its members (annually more than 10,000 queen bees are needed). The rest of them, thus, are produced by the members of the Cooperative as they are performing queen bee growing. Annually, the two New Zealanders produce 2500-3000 queen bees of Italian race in an isolated Aegean island, but they send them to New Zealand, and there is no circulation in Greece.

Price:-----

Note: The Cooperative has a deficit in this sector and does not sell queen bees.

 

is there even an element of truth in this? time to find an investigative journalist or similar. That should be life in jail for the nz importers if true

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I appreciate your support, but I am afraid that the one thing I have been reminded about with my brief foray back into the Forum over the last couple days, is just how futile all this discussion is because all of us have our thoughts and opinions well set in concrete- I think I will beat a hasty retreat!

i'd really appreciate what Ted suggested = hearing the arguments for importation in a well-reasoned format. Not providing such an argument will lead people to suppose that any such arguments are weak and/or flawed

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I appreciate your support, but I am afraid that the one thing I have been reminded about with my brief foray back into the Forum over the last couple days, is just how futile all this discussion is because all of us have our thoughts and opinions well set in concrete- I think I will beat a hasty retreat!

 

No no! A question: OK so if all the disease related risks can be appropriately managed, is there a bee type (semen) you would want to import? Thanks, - and please stick around - we are all being better informed (well I know I am) from your contributing.

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I appreciate your support, but I am afraid that the one thing I have been reminded about with my brief foray back into the Forum over the last couple days, is just how futile all this discussion is because all of us have our thoughts and opinions well set in concrete- I think I will beat a hasty retreat!

That is a real shame if you do "retreat". I have very much enjoyed your posts.

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....

 

....so after 13 years the genetics of the carnies and italians still can't be merged in a pleasant way, at least not in a way that you would breed from them. therefore genetically the import has made us poorer, not more diverse.

 

i assume unless there is an other import soon, the carnies are steering in a bit of end of the road situation, since there's only that much combinations you can do before inbreeding becomes a problem.....

 

 

"It always seems impossible, until it's done"

From the standpoint of the common knowledge, both statements are true, but otherwise completely wrong.

 

 

On the other hand, genetic bottlenecks doesn't lead to anythyng good in a long run. "Pure breeds" doesn't exist in Nature. Any effort to preserve something just the way it was, is the fastest way to extinction. Any living organism constantly faces new pathogens (either via evolution or introduction), and if it doesn't have genetic variation (introgression from other populations) to adapt - becomes history as soon as a new pathogen arrives ( its about when, not whether). One reason explainig the vulnerability or even the extinction (e.g. the native bee of Crete) of some very isolated Island native bee populations, as soon as new pathogen shows up

 

While the introgression is good, simply importing is ussually bad. Most often it takes 1-2 generations for the imported stock to adapt to the new pathogens. Localy-bred are in most cases better coping with the pathogens ( which doesn't necessarily = more productive)

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Can black Queen Hives be racist.

I tried to use a strong hive with a very black queen to incubate cells

The Queen was caged in a very secure 3 frame partition and there was just one Queen.

The hive tore down two rounds of cells on about day 9 or 10

Gave up on the hive

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Can black Queen Hives be racist.

I tried to use a strong hive with a very black queen to incubate cells

The Queen was caged in a very secure 3 frame partition and there was just one Queen.

The hive tore down two rounds of cells on about day 9 or 10

Gave up on the hive

In my experience- definitely!! Trying to requeen carni hives with yellow queens will definitely reduce your usual acceptance rates.

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