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I see that the link to the submissions on the Risk Analysis(RA) for the Importation of Carnica semen from Germany and Austria was posted on this Forum.   Remember first that this was 2003, but it does

This image is from 2005 when I was at the F3 stage with the carnica semen importations.  This Queen is 87.5% carnica, and is sort of the bee I am headed back to with our new Kiwi Cross population that

Local selection of local bees leads to greater production, less costs, less losses and helps to retain genetic diversity and genetic improvements that have been bred by local beekeepers for generation

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On 25.08.2017 г. at 1:15 PM, tom sayn said:

actually i had given up on you after that comment. but now i find you quite entertaining after all

I normally would say that I hear that occasionally, but for the first time it comes from the mouth of a man, but since I guess you're trying to be nice, will try to behave.

 

To avoid misunderstandings, my humor is mostly black and I use self-irony and sarcasm freely.

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43 minutes ago, Scutellator said:

To avoid misunderstandings, my humor is mostly black and I use self-irony and sarcasm freely.

that sounds a lot like me. would be a sad world without humor.

people that meet me often say things to me like. "you got quite a bit of humor - for a german". or "i didn't know germans had humor."

i usually respond something like " sure they do. it's just not funny"

i know, wasn't very funny, but that's ok for a german.....

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On 25.08.2017 г. at 1:11 PM, tom sayn said:

a bit of both.

you seemed like a bit of a buckfast fan but then stated "not in this universe"

If Buckfasts are bred in the same way as say Italians or carniolans, they lose their stability in colour and probably every other characteristic. Not every line or hive should be used as drone line.

 

To answer the previous question - I am not a conservator, but I still consider myself old-fashioned buckfaster. In case your bees have unique desired quality - something like green body colour like the green orchid bee, extreme thriftiness and life span like the Anatolians, increased foraging range as the AMMs, zero use of propolis as the Egyptians, low swarming index and calmness as  the Greeks (once were), faster brood development as the Cameroonians, or heat resistantce as the Socotrians, I see no reason to introduce a bee just for the sake of one gen heterosis  ( that's what the open mating is for!).

Fixing a new quality in a line takes something like 4 gen (6-10 years?) and it costs about €50 000 (in my operation). No guarantee for success.

 

Heterosis is good indeed, but what comes after it is much more valuable (and gives better heterosis, when crossed)

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i like your way of thinking. would be great to have someone like you working on a carni x itaian cross. can you do ai?

i don't want to discredit those that are playing with it already here. at least they try and that's more than i do.

but i think that it needs to be tried on a much larger scale and with some serious background behind it.

nothing would please me more in breeding nz bees than a good , stable carni x itaian cross.

 

 

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my understanding (and experience) with breeding carnis and italians together, after a few generations you usually end up with something you don't really want to continue.

by using controlled mating a breeder could select strains where the carni x italian crosses in a more desired way and once the cross is stabilized the open mating shouldn't upset the mix anymore much. this would mean a guy like me could continue from there to select on my own terms without much set backs. (as long as you don't have to mate with nasty strains of cos.)

this would allow more independence and genetic diversity in our bee population.

while at the moment you buy a breeder (carni or italian) and then try to stay as pure as possible on that breed. usually means you go back to the supplier at least every 2 years.

doesn't mean that's not what most guys will still do, but maybe not everyone and don't underestimate the relevance of little "breeders" for diversity and that's very important when new challenges appear.

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i should also tell you where i would recommend to get italian strains from that are hardy and productive,

some of these have also really nice winter brakes, just like carnis and then breed up from small numbers very rapidly.

also very economical with food and low swarm tendency. a few guys will hate me for blaring it out, but i believe we have to keep those good italian strains going on the north island and multiply them.

@Rob Atkinsonwould be the guy to talk to. from all i've tried his breeds suit my turf the best.

 

 

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On 25.08.2017 г. at 1:04 PM, tom sayn said:

...and i honestly believe there was more potential in the nz original breeds, probably still is. but we loose genetics fast because the hybrid problem does not allow every beekeeper to breed of his own stock

Sure it does. In Poland nearly half of the beeks use AI, which is impressive. The Russian breeders in US are good example (in terms of cooperation and genetic maintenance). The Buckfast breeders in Europe are another one.

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. ..... On open mating...

it does work here if that's what we decide and it works for many islands. 

IF your only goal is to preserve the yellow colour of your bees, having neighbors with yellow bees usually results in yellow bees, so yes - it does work.

BUT, if you're focused on vitality and your neighbor doesn't share your philosophy, feeding/helping every hive that probably would die, his drones will probably have mating advantage over your drones when mating with your queens ( coz they are unrelated and in bigger numbers). What do you do?

If you want non swarming bees, but your neighbor doesn't care, you go and spray Raid through his hive entrances?

If you want bees who shut down brooding over winter and your neighbor does not...

If you want more honey, but your neighbor needs more brood...

 

No serious cattle or horse breeder will use random bull or stallion only because it belongs to the "right" race. I still can't understand why the beekeepers keep preserving on the "any drone from the right race will do" mentality.

The bee needs constant selective pressure, otherwise - deteriorate. You believe the bees from Cangoroo island are close enough to the original imports? - Don't think so.

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i really believe we would be in open mating haven if we would have resisted the temptation to import a new strain.

if they really would have been resistant to varroa, well that would have been a different story.

 

What about inbred Italian VSH/SMR quees from Banton Rouge? Very useful for producing commercial "Monsanto" bee. High honey production, no need for varroa treatments, and in my experience, high enough virus resistance.

 

Importing by itself is neither good nor bad, it is a tool. Some of us want faster results (not spending 20yrs on something already invented, better spend 10yrs fighting for import permit). Some of us want two fold increase in honey production next year, not in the some possible future. Some of us are just too lazy to be keen working with a labour intensive bee. You can't blame your neighbors for that.

 

In my opinion, a possible import now, would cause the sector to go out of balance further. And I make my living by solving problems, not by creating them. But time is mine and I can wait.

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4 hours ago, Scutellator said:

IF your only goal is to preserve the yellow colour of your bees, having neighbors with yellow bees usually results in yellow bees, so yes - it does work.

obviously it's not about that for me.

but right now 2 generations down from putting a nice strain out i end up with overwhelmingly many colonies i would not even consider for breeding. so that makes my options very slim.

i know i control only one half of the selection. but all beekeepers here have the same goal. some take more care than others of cos, but if i take care of my half i trust the other half enough and appreciate the interaction. it's the inter racial breeding that makes it unpleasant. 

but as i said in an earlier post, i agree that i have to live with as it is now.

i could learn ai (no way!!!) or get out of my way to find a place where i can control mating (would probably need an island for that) or buy some stock regular of someone like Rob and leave the breeding to the Davids, Robs,  Fazzles and   brother Adams in this world.

 

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Beekeepers in our area predominantly run yellow Italians but I am definitely seeing a slight drift to the dark side.

Im very disappointed when I see a hive with mixed bees and dark drones and I imagine it will become harder every year. 

Unlike @David YankeI think If I left the bees to their own devices they would continue the drift to grey .

Edited by frazzledfozzle
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3 hours ago, Alastair said:

They drift to the middle.

 

When David said his bees would go yellow, I'll bet yellow to him, is not quite what yellow is to me.

My experience is they tend to drift to the dark side.

This may be due to the physical strength of  the dark Drones.

This season I already have on order a min of 100 lighter colored queens, last year I brought in 200-300 of the same.

 

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My experience , for what it's worth, from open mating emergency queens here, is they go to either side of middle colour . 

In other words , most are a darker shade of yellow , with a few ( I'll guess 10%) either quite yellow or quite black 

Edited by M4tt
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4 minutes ago, M4tt said:

My experience , for what it's worth, from open mating emergency queens here, is they go to either side of middle colour . 

In other words , most are a darker shade of yellow , with a few ( I'll guess 10%) either quite yellow or quite black 

Thats a bell graph.

My center left  would be Tiger and center right would be dark tips

The extreme left is black and extreme right is yellow

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  Selecting for racial characteristics is so yesterday- performance is all that matters, and the more selection criteria you work with, the slower the rate of stock improvement, even when you are using a proven breeding model.  All we should  care about is Varroa tolerance and hygienic behaviour(they go hand in hand), productivity, and temperament.

 

I have never known anybody who selects for racial characteristics only. 

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6 hours ago, frazzledfozzle said:

Beekeepers in our area predominantly run yellow Italians but I am definitely seeing a slight drift to the dark side.

Im very disappointed when I see a hive with mixed bees and dark drones and I imagine it will become harder every year. 

Unlike @David YankeI think If I left the bees to their own devices they would continue the drift to grey .

well all ours are drifting yellow

you are welcome to bring some queens and use our yellow drones. :)

i think there are about 2 months of the year when it is possible to mate queens here LOL

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 the survival of a bee used to depend on it's ability to kill or at least scare anyone off that wanted their honey.

Nah, unlike the Western countries, where the bees were driven out of the primitive hives, in the Eastern countries the harvesting (most heavy skeps) was done by killing the bees ( at least for the Ottoman empire). Passing on the genes, required different set of qualities.

Carnica (and the Netherlands native bee) was, in the past, purposely selected for swarming propensity, the only way of reproduction. The swarms were exported to the western and northern parts of Europe in great numbers. It is only because the local bees were less favourable in qualities( and the inability of the italians to be universally commercial bee), Carnica gained such a good reputation.

Here, the NZ Carnica not being "true" Carnica is actually considered a good thing

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