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@tom sayn you can't feel the loss of something...

Actually the real meaning is this :

http://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2016/09/23/miracle-teenager-survives-on-his-own-for-almost-6-hours-with-no-wi-fi/

 

Yet 100 years ago nobody was bothered from the lack of electricity, internet or cell phones. It's his way of saying "if you don't know what electricity is, a new plasma TV is the last thing you need"

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I see that the link to the submissions on the Risk Analysis(RA) for the Importation of Carnica semen from Germany and Austria was posted on this Forum.   Remember first that this was 2003, but it does

This image is from 2005 when I was at the F3 stage with the carnica semen importations.  This Queen is 87.5% carnica, and is sort of the bee I am headed back to with our new Kiwi Cross population that

Local selection of local bees leads to greater production, less costs, less losses and helps to retain genetic diversity and genetic improvements that have been bred by local beekeepers for generation

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i will put beside that the carnis are actually no carnis cos they had no carni mother and the italians are no italian, just yellow bees, unless someone authorized certifies them as italians......

as @David Yanke has pointed out correctly, unless you buy one of his artificial inseminated models we are dealing with hibrids.

a dark hibrid is maybe more likely, but not necessarily more carni than italian.  therefor our observations mean little.

the strain of carnis we imported has been breed over many decades to perform in a certain way.

if you take a population of italian (yellow bees) and close them of and breed them to perform to the same standards you can get these yellow bees to perform identical. simply a matter of time and applying selection and controlled mating correctly.

bees are managed different here from germany. a carni that takes part in breeding programs will never get fed in spring. here spring feeding is almost the norm. the differences that we might  believe to be race specific can be changed.

just look at defensive  behavior. the survival of a bee used to depend on it's ability to kill or at least scare anyone off that wanted their honey. nowadays the friendly bee gets to pass on it's genes and that's what survives.

for a long time pollination was the big earner here. bees had to produce huge amounts of brood early to be good earners and honey was just something that made the boxes heavy. i believe that's what has created a few strain of italian that have a bad name now for being mite fabrics and sugar addicts. but you see from @john berry's comments that his bee has been breed to different standards and though also yellow nz stock is food economic and highly productive. we should work on improving our skills and abilities to breed better bees.

i believe it's the wrong way to import. and if you allow it one person, shouldn't everyone have the same right?

i really believe we would be in open mating haven if we would have resisted the temptation to import a new strain.

if they really would have been resistant to varroa, well that would have been a different story.

but what can be achieved with carnis has pretty much been tickelt out of them already. and i honestly believe there was more potential in the nz original breeds, probably still is. but we loose genetics fast because the hybrid problem does not allow every beekeeper to breed of his own stock. and this will make our stock purer very fast.

1 hour ago, Scutellator said:

Bann the bee imports is a strategy that doesn't work!

it does work here if that's what we decide and it works for many islands. many pacific islands still have no mites, nor has australia.

there are areas in eu where you can work bees only with gloves cos there is every breed that ever existed crossing each other.

though they might have been all friendly breeds on their own. why do the same mistake here if it can be avoided?

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5 minutes ago, tom sayn said:

i will put beside that the carnis are actually no carnis cos they had no carni mother and the italians are no italian, just yellow bees, unless someone authorized certifies them as italians......

as @David Yanke has pointed out correctly, unless you buy one of his artificial inseminated models we are dealing with hibrids.

a dark hibrid is maybe more likely, but not necessarily more carni than italian.  therefor our observations mean little.

the strain of carnis we imported has been breed over many decades to perform in a certain way.

if you take a population of italian (yellow bees) and close them of and breed them to perform to the same standards you can get these yellow bees to perform identical. simply a matter of time and applying selection and controlled mating correctly.

bees are managed different here from germany. a carni that takes part in breeding programs will never get fed in spring. here spring feeding is almost the norm. the differences that we might  believe to be race specific can be changed.

just look at defensive  behavior. the survival of a bee used to depend on it's ability to kill or at least scare anyone off that wanted their honey. nowadays the friendly bee gets to pass on it's genes and that's what survives.

for a long time pollination was the big earner here. bees had to produce huge amounts of brood early to be good earners and honey was just something that made the boxes heavy. i believe that's what has created a few strain of italian that have a bad name now for being mite fabrics and sugar addicts. but you see from @john berry's comments that his bee has been breed to different standards and though also yellow nz stock is food economic and highly productive. we should work on improving our skills and abilities to breed better bees.

i believe it's the wrong way to import. and if you allow it one person, shouldn't everyone have the same right?

i really believe we would be in open mating haven if we would have resisted the temptation to import a new strain.

if they really would have been resistant to varroa, well that would have been a different story.

but what can be achieved with carnis has pretty much been tickelt out of them already. and i honestly believe there was more potential in the nz original breeds, probably still is. but we loose genetics fast because the hybrid problem does not allow every beekeeper to breed of his own stock. and this will make our stock purer very fast.

it does work here if that's what we decide and it works for many islands. many pacific islands still have no mites, nor has australia.

there are areas in eu where you can work bees only with gloves cos there is every breed that ever existed crossing each other.

though they might have been all friendly breeds on their own. why do the same mistake here if it can be avoided?

Tom I Breed bees, they are the biggest hotch potch collection of yellow/ black mongols that could possibly be assembled.

I breed for one thing and thats survivability.

So if a hive is alive it is a likely candidate for  breeding.

My Drones come from  hives scatted over 1000 ha and my nieghbour Beeks hives scatted over about the same.

Some are yellow with black tips and a few are Black with everything in between.

Ive got people coming back asking for more of my Queens because they do well

Am I a good Queen breeder, No way, how can I be, Im new to it.

I suspect that those who claim that they have bred an improved Bee are actually confusing the improvement in there bees with the improvement in themselves.

I know that If I improved my management of Varroa 2 fold, my Bees would appear twice as good, 

 

 

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if you mean by "good'" productive, that's all very confusing when you interbreed different unrelated strains.

you get heterosis effects. i believe @David Yanketouched that topic here somewhere.

a bee might be very productive because of such a heterosis effect but then the next generation is falling back rapidly and might have a lot of other disadvantages on top of it like ill temper and runny like water and bare comb everywhere...

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in some way i might just have to accept the criticism that if i can't make controlled mating happen for me i just have to be one of these ppb who buy a breeder every season from now on or get stung or what ever. just a shame cos for almost a decade it was just like open mating haven and how great that could have been.....

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@Philbee I agree with  Tom, you selecting your Breeders out of a Mongrel Mess will get you nowhere- heterosis or environmental factors would most probably  account for what you are seeing, and heterosis is not heritable.  Those Breeders would throw daughters that are allover the place, and a complete lottery when it comes to performance.  If you could close that mongrel population off, observe and select for generations, like Brother Adam did, then you could come up with a commercially useful  bee.

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17 minutes ago, tom sayn said:

if you mean by "good'" productive, that's all very confusing when you interbreed different unrelated strains.

you get hetero-sis effects. i believe @David Yanketouched that topic here somewhere.

a bee might be very productive because of such a heterosis effect but then the next generation is falling back rapidly and might have a lot of other disadvantages on top of it like ill temper and runny like water and bare comb everywhere...

Good for me means Survive, vigor.

Hybrid vigor is best derived from crossing true breeding lines, that is why its so important to maintain at least 2 true breeding lines. (Line breeding basics)

Crossing mongrels doesn't produce hybrid vigor.

Ive said it before that the best genetics dead wont produce a honey crop or anything else

 

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@tom sayn You are right about my carnica lacking a parent, so they can't be true carnica, but it is a father they are lacking.  Because of parthenogenesis, drones  develop from unfertilised eggs, they are haploid, really just flying gametes of the Queen that laid the egg.  What my carnica are lacking is carnica mitochondrial  DNA which I could have only got by importing fertilised eggs.

Edited by David Yanke
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9 minutes ago, David Yanke said:

@Philbee I agree with  Tom, you selecting your Breeders out of a Mongrel Mess will get you nowhere- heterosis or environmental factors would most probably  account for what you are seeing, and heterosis is not heritable.  Those Breeders would throw daughters that are allover the place, and a complete lottery when it comes to performance.  If you could close that mongrel population off, observe and select for generations, like Brother Adam did, then you could come up with a commercially useful  bee.

I guess it is obvious that I dont buy into the breeding game when tied to an open mated regime.

For example one costumer was having trouble with poor acceptance of caged Queens so switched over to mine and had very good acceptance.

Were my Queens genetically superior?

Of course not, they were simply over night couriered the same day  they were caged, not held for 2-3 days.

We are a lazy mob, always looking for an easy way

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@David Yanke What I should  have said is that because of parthenogenesis, Honey bees don't have true Fathers.  Tom was right about  my carnica, they do lack something because  they were established only with semen importations  over several generations, and that something is mitochondrial DNA, which I could have only got if I had imported fertilised eggs. Disregard my previous post!

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There is a tendency to think bees are just bees but you had to beekeeping bees 50 years ago to realise just how much they have improved and the huge debt of gratitude we are to past breeders like Jasper Bray. Because the majority of beekeepers in the past strived to improve their bees we have ended up with a situation where the vast majority of our genetics are way superior in both temperament and productivity and that even applies to the carniolan crosses. Personally I'm not convinced that closed breeding programs are the answer but at least they are striving for improvement. Not selecting for improvement results in bee genetics backsliding remarkably quickly.

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8 minutes ago, john berry said:

There is a tendency to think bees are just bees but you had to beekeeping bees 50 years ago to realise just how much they have improved and the huge debt of gratitude we are to past breeders like Jasper Bray. Because the majority of beekeepers in the past strived to improve their bees we have ended up with a situation where the vast majority of our genetics are way superior in both temperament and productivity and that even applies to the carniolan crosses. Personally I'm not convinced that closed breeding programs are the answer but at least they are striving for improvement. Not selecting for improvement results in bee genetics backsliding remarkably quickly.

Breed anything and you soon learn that there is no such thing as better in a wholistic sense, just different.

Selective breeding is all about trade offs.

That is a basic rule of life.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Breed anything and you soon learn that there is no such thing as better in a wholistic sense, just different.

Selective breeding is all about trade offs.

That is a basic rule of life.

 

 

i would have to take the breeder hat off and put the philosopher hat on before i can even think about that one.

but i guess you never had to harvest a hive that attack you already 20m before you even got there, right?

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And comment for site admin, while reading my post I hovered the mouse on AMM and it said "European Dark Honey Bee". This is not strictly correct. AMM's are a distinct breed and are quite different from other dark European honey bees, such as carniolans, which are the main dark honeybee we have in NZ now.

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Thanks Alastair that's awesome to hear that, I love those little stories, That is exactly how I do my queens every hive has the queen info on it  we can go back four or five years on some lids, because I mark all our queens if they supersede I write Q Mk (marked) yell (yellow) for example , I to use alphabet my main line currently is E2a and E2b which means they are grand daughters of  E original- E1 was daughters and so on. The only downside I find is staff not writing info on lids but on the most part its good. Question can you remember if he ever select a breeder from a superseded Queen?.

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7 minutes ago, Alastair said:

And comment for site admin, while reading my post I hovered the mouse on AMM and it said "European Dark Honey Bee". This is not strictly correct. AMM's are a distinct breed and are quite different from other dark European honey bees, such as carniolans, which are the main dark honeybee we have in NZ now.

are agressive african bees called cape bees?

is AMM something completely different.

is there a family tree of honey bees on the net, i have looked but can not find.

i like pictures of things, helps me make sense of stuff

 

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10 minutes ago, kaihoka said:

are agressive african bees called cape bees?

is AMM something completely different.

is there a family tree of honey bees on the net, i have looked but can not find.

i like pictures of things, helps me make sense of stuff

 

There are many different African bees, the so called "killer bees" are a hybrid of the african bee scutelata. Cape bees are a different African bee again, also somewhat aggressive. Scutelata are golden coloured similar to Italians they are not dark. Of course some hybrids might be just depend what they mated with.

 

Yes AMM's are completely different. They are black and used to be a very common bee worldwide. They were the original English bee that were the first bees brought to NZ by early settlers. Later, Italian bees were imported, and the AMM's fell out of popularity because the Italians suited our environment, and were very calm to work compared to the aggressive AMM's which locally were known as "old English Bees", or sometimes in the trade, "blackbums", or worse.

 

But the AMM's survived in the wild and were a constant problem injecting their aggressive genes into domestic stock, and this situation continued until varroa wiped them all out and saved us.

 

There is some confusion among newish beekeepers, because at the same time as varroa arrived and started killing out the AMM's, Carniolan bee sperm was imported and production of Carniolan bees, a gentle natured black bee, began. Thus we sometimes hear people claiming they have "gentle AMM's". However as someone who used to work with AMM's I can confidently state that gentle AMM's do not exist. If someone has a gentle black bee, it is a carniolan.

 

I haven't seen an AMM bee for many years now they are pretty much extinct and that's a good thing. But every now and then I get a hive that starts stinging me soon as I open it, don't stop regardless of smoke, plus follow me afterwards even if I walk 100 meters. That, and some other behaviours in that hive which I recognise from days of old, tell me there are still some AMM genetics in our bees.

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4 hours ago, Alastair said:

And comment for site admin, while reading my post I hovered the mouse on AMM and it said "European Dark Honey Bee". This is not strictly correct. AMM's are a distinct breed and are quite different from other dark European honey bees, such as carniolans, which are the main dark honeybee we have in NZ now.

Alastair what do you think the description for AMM should be? I don't know enough about them to agree or disagree with you. Wikipedia describes them as "European Dark Bee". It's simple to change if there is a better alternative.

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7 hours ago, tom sayn said:

i would have to take the breeder hat off and put the philosopher hat on before i can even think about that one.

but i guess you never had to harvest a hive that attack you already 20m before you even got there, right?

Actually I have.

However it was a while ago and bred from it as much as I could.

It wasn't an easy hive to bred from but there are probably still some of its descendants in my operation.

It wasnt a Carni hive and Ill dig out a photo of the bees

Edited by Philbee
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