Jump to content
Scutellator

Breeder queens

Recommended Posts

I appreciate your support, but I am afraid that the one thing I have been reminded about with my brief foray back into the Forum over the last couple days, is just how futile all this discussion is because all of us have our thoughts and opinions well set in concrete- I think I will beat a hasty retreat!

The people who join the discussion my have their thoughts set in concrete but there are a lot of us who just do not know and want to keep reading all sides of the argument .

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
In my experience- definitely!! Trying to requeen carni hives with yellow queens will definitely reduce your usual acceptance rates.

And vise versa

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Can black Queen Hives be racist.

...

The hive tore down two rounds of cells on about day 9 or 10

All cells?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

wouldn't think it's because of race.

you missed a virgin or something was seriously wrong with the cells. (like virus or chilled)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
wouldn't think it's because of race.

you missed a virgin or something was seriously wrong with the cells. (like virus or chilled)

This season Ill set up a small trial with just a few cells if I come across a black hive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ΑΛΛΑ ΠΡΟΪΟΝΤΑ

2-3000 queens from Greece annually exported into NZ? F*** ME! (excuse me for the expression)

 

Buriyng your head in the sand, doesn't solve your real problems

 

(BTW, for the moment I am also against bee imports in NZ, but for different reasons. And not like many beeks out there, who are against only because it's not them who is importing)

 

i have to say this is the most extreme statement i've ever come across.

is everyone else assuming this is a hoax or why is there only one comment from @tommy dave ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 15.08.2017 г. at 1:25 PM, tom sayn said:

 

....

is everyone else assuming this is a hoax .....?

Ok, the website is a bit outdated and they hadn't managet to remove that part from it, yet. But I believe at some point there was some truth in that statement.

 

I don't see the world in black and white. Criminalizing the use of marijuana ( or alcohol for that matter) won't stop the people from abusing with it.

The guy importing genetics LEGALY and trying to CONTRIBUTE to the sectory is not the enemy. Nothing wrong in making a living from it meanwhile. The real enemy are the guys who are after more profit no matter what, even if that means to kill  their neighbour's hives, let alone care if by smuggling queens they might introduce new pathogens ( you need brains for that).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Scutellator said:

LEGALY

Many, if not most of New Zealand's worst environmental  nightmares have been imported "legally"

 

 

 

  • Like 1
  • Agree 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There are probably as many supporters of carniolan's on this forum as there are people against it and I certainly wouldn't like David to think I have something against him personally because I don't. I have spent a lifetime developing a strain of predominantly Italian bees which are quiet, productive, very conservative with honey stores, genetically suited to the local environment and reasonably wasp resistant. AMM was always a problem but had largely been eliminated and varoa took care of the last few and then suddenly we have a totally different strain of bee which unfortunately has aggressive hybrids. 10 years ago I could quite happily leave over 80% of my hives to raise their own Queen if I was short of cells. Now it would be a lot less than 50%. I cannot believe the seaman was not tested for viruses and I also find it hard to credit that it was allowed in at all considering the area it came from was very close to an experimental population of Cape bees. The wider beekeeping population had no say in the importation of carniolan's there hybrids are nasty and as such more dangerous than existing bee stocks which inevitably means more people will be stung leading to more hospitalisation and  increasing the risk of a fatality. Frankly if we had to import anything I would have thought Buckfast were a better bet.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm also not against David personally but to come into a discussion and only make 3-4 posts before giving up is being a bit precious in my opinion.

i don't know why David feels that it's not OK for others to have a different opinion to himself.

if those of us trying to keep our queens as pure to Italian as possible just gave up and said Nah it doesn't matter, is that a good thing?  I don't think it is . 

Many beekeepers these days don't seem to care what kind of queen they have in their hives, anything will do. But for me and my personal satisfaction it's Italian all the way.

 

We we have enough diversity in our bees right now we don't need to take the risk of anything nasty being brought in to NZ.

 

@Dave Black I find it very interesting your comment that DWV was tested for and NOT found in 2003.  What does that say to the people who's theory is it's  either always being here or it was brought in on varroa ?

Edited by frazzledfozzle

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have Italian's that are open mated and the hive temperament is fine.  I agree though that next generation crosses / hybrids can start to get bad tempered as they get darker, they are always my hottest hives by a long way.  

 

I am interested in learning more about the Carny's.  Maybe they are a better bee for productivity, temperament and disease resilience - I just don't know.

 

I couldn't run a yard though where there was a mix of Queen types, build up is different, and especially around swarming time the darker bees seem ready to go earlier (or mine do anyway...).  

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, john berry said:

 

 

1 minute ago, CraBee said:

I have Italian's that are open mated and the hive temperament is fine.  I agree though that next generation crosses / hybrids can start to get bad tempered as they get darker, they are always my hottest hives by a long way.  

 

I am interested in learning more about the Carny's.  Maybe they are a better bee for productivity, temperament and disease resilience - I just don't know.

 

I couldn't run a yard though where there was a mix of Queen types, build up is different, and especially around swarming time the darker bees seem ready to go earlier (or mine do anyway...).  

 

 

Ive got used to a cross bred bee.

The different buildup times can be a challenge though.

Ive just got in from a 40km round trip to feed just one monster yellow hive.

The 19 others in the site are all bubbling along on their 50/50 but this yellow one is low on stores and going hand to mouth 6 lts of syrup at a time.
Its currently 2 boxes full and I should have put another on but didnt have one.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, frazzledfozzle said:

I find it very interesting your comment that DWV was tested for and NOT found in 2003.  What does that say to the people who's theory is it's  either always being here or it was brought in on varroa ?

In 2001 Jacqui Todd (see below) looked for DWV too. "30 honey bee colonies were established at two apiary sites in the Bay of Plenty, In November 2002, 13 small honey bee colonies were established at the Mt Albert Research Centre in Auckland, New Zealand. These colonies were managed without acaricide treatment for the duration of the study. Samples of dead bees, when present, were obtained from each of the 13 colonies on a monthly basis until the death of each colony during 2003.A sample of live bees was also collected from each of the colonies that were alive in March but later died (11 colonies) and again from the 12 remaining colonies in April 2002...No DWV could be detected in these colonies"

Even in 2014, from Fanny Mondet's study "DWV was found in only 50% of the colonies examined in this study. This might reflect the recent arrival of the mite in New Zealand because in the areas where Varroa had not yet been detected, only one single DWV-positive colony was recorded. In the regions that had been infested with Varroa the longest, DWV prevalence reached 85% to 100%..."

 

Unfortunately adding to the confusion is the relationship between DWV and deformed wings. Ironically there may not be one. We are no closer to showing that high DWV loads or specific types of DWV always cause DWV. While @David Yanke remarks that deformed wings were present, and I don't doubt him, it ain't necessarily so that DWV was the cause. Jacqui Todd again:

"It is particularly interesting that DWV was not detected in any of our study colonies, even with the use of the highly sensitive RT-PCR analysis. DWV now predominates in infested honey bee colonies in many areas of the world and the transmission of this virus by V. destructor has been linked to colony collapse in these countries. Occasionally, adult bees with deformed wings were observed in our heavily infested study colonies, but DWV was not detected in these individual bees. It is possible that the deformed wings were caused by the feeding activities of the mites on the bee pupae or, alternatively, DWV may be present in New Zealand honey bees but was not detected in our study. This could be because of the unstable nature of the virus, which would have led to its rapid degradation in the bee samples, or because of the virulence of the KBV infection in these samples. KBV is known to predominate in mixed infections in individual bees because of its more rapid replication rate. It is likely, then, that in bee colonies with large mite populations, KBV will become the most prevalent infection causing colony loss, and may mask the presence of other infections such as DWV."

 

Around the world the association of DWV with varroa is pretty clear, but we don't fully understand the relationship. DWV can be found in other species, but everything we know says it originates in Apis mellifera. ('It' of course is an approximation; we know now 'it' is a group of closely related clones.) There is very limited scope for the virus to travel without the mite. Pollen is such one vector; semen too. There may have been a very tiny amount of DWV here that could not have been detected until 'amplified' by the arrival of varroa but there were people looking (maybe everyone was sampling in the wrong place). Or, over time, there may have been more bee imports than we think.


Incidence and molecular characterization of viruses found in dying New Zealand honey bee (Apis mellifera) colonies infested with Varroa destructor (2007) Jacqui H. Todd, Joachim R.De Miranda, Brenda V. Ball. Apidologie 38 (2007) 354-367

 

Mondet F, de Miranda JR, Kretzschmar A, Le Conte Y, Mercer AR (2014) On the Front Line: Quantitative Virus Dynamics in Honeybee (Apis mellifera L.) Colonies along a New Expansion Front of the Parasite Varroa destructor. PLoS Pathog 10(8): e1004323. doi:10.1371/journal.ppat.1004323

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 5
  • Good Info 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's no good info button?

That's a very interesting read @Dave Black

 

If anyone's interested in the submissions made on the carny semen importation this is also an interesting read especially in light of the damage bee viruses are doing to bees in NZ and also the thinking behind MAF's approval of the importation doesn't actually fill me with confidence 

 

https://mpi.govt.nz/document-vault/2786

 

  • Agree 1
  • Good Info 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was wondering where "good info  " button was too.

  • Good Info 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/17/2017 at 1:28 PM, john berry said:

I cannot believe the seaman was not tested for viruses and I also find it hard to credit that it was allowed in at all considering the area it came from was very close to an experimental population of Cape bees

Can you expand more on this as to what was the experiment for and the outcome and what happened to the bees after that please. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 8/17/2017 at 9:15 PM, frazzledfozzle said:

 

Just a few thoughts.

Dont specific traits relating to adaptions to an environment eg Extreme hygienic behavior (Varroa tolerance ) across a population and "Genetic Diversity"

work against each other?

Eg, Aboriginal tribes survive due to their  specifically adapted Homozygous gene pool.

 

Are we heading then for a possible Monsanto model of annual Hybrid Queens bred  on islands and supplied to the peasant masses, possibly on a quota basis

Just wondering

 

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought we already had those Queens, at $gazillion ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, yesbut said:

I thought we already had those Queens, at $gazillion ?

This is the Question

Is there any such thing as a true breeding Varroa tolerant Queen or even a line of Queens with a reasonable hit rate for Varroa tolerance.

This is a fundamental question in relation to a rationale for importing new genetics.
MPI are used to dealing with cows and sheep which are highly genetically manipulable 

To make the assumption that bees are the same is a huge mistake

  • Like 2
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Footnote to last post

Personally I see Bee materials imports as very risky

However I like the cross bred Queens/Bees that David has enabled.

 

Edited by Philbee
clarity
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

what i don't like about the presence of the 2 breeds is that it counteracts genetic diversity.

(i assume here that most of you understands why there is no - and most likely will never be-  an italianxcarnie breeder queen on the market.)

 

if we would have stuck with what we had, italian with a bit of amm in the background, it would have allowed for every beekeeper to act as a breeder. this way diversity can unfold. the nations bee would have been on a much  healthier foundation.

you would have big breeders still using AI and supplying big commercials with their genetic choice, but also plenty of small breeders, call them want to be breeders if you want, using open mating only.

basically breeding of those hives that did well under their circumstances.

"cororappa" is a great example why this is so important.

through dynamic breeding there is a feed back from the local environment into selection. this progress is passed on to the next generation only if we continue to breed from the new successful generation. if we go back to who ever supplies us with breeder queens every year there can be no progress. having 2 separate breeds clashing with heterosis effects into this selection process is ruining all progress.

 

an other disadvantage of the 2 separate breeds is breeding programs.  any future breeding program that we hopefully will have one day has to make a choice. carnie or italian, and the fruits of that breeding program can only be  to one breed. obviously a huge obstetrical for any funding.

 

my objection is not against the carnies, but against running the 2 breeds parallel.

personally i could bring myself to abandon the the italian in favor for carnis if that was the nations choice.

but i believe we are far better off to stick with the old breed.

it's true that the carnies are a good be. but if it comes to genetic diversity you will find that they have undergone a selective pressure like no other bee and that since many decades. don't be fooled by thinking you could escape the incest by hopping over the border to an other eu country. the exchange of genetic material between carni breeders is intense. it has to be to escape incest. and not before long we will have to import again.

 

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, tom sayn said:

obviously a huge obstetrical for any funding.

Hmmmmmmmm.....

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×