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Evidence of resistance to synthetics

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Yes that was a good weekend! Have you given the test a shot @Trevor Gillbanks?

No, sadly. I have been more interested with my hives with trying the Organic Acid treatments.

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I'm just thinking out loud here.

When the strips are in the hive, are they not hanging centered in the gap between frames?

Then wouldn't the strips be rubbing against the bees backs mostly rather than bees walking on them. I can imagine a much larger dose being applied at any one point by rubbing across your back compared to just walking on it.

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I'm just thinking out loud here.

When the strips are in the hive, are they not hanging centered in the gap between frames?

Then wouldn't the strips be rubbing against the bees backs mostly rather than bees walking on them. I can imagine a much larger dose being applied at any one point by rubbing across your back compared to just walking on it.

They end up doing both and that is the correct dosage. If the bees cant rub/walk on both sides of the strip you are not fully treating....

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I can imagine a much larger dose being applied at any one point by rubbing across your back compared to just walking on it.

Yes, but we aren't so interested in the Bee, who is just transport. It's the mites that need the right dose.

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you will have some resistance to apistan/barvayol. thats a given. its more of a case of how bad is it.

we have had it now for such a long time that it will be everywhere and its not a problem what will ever go away.

you can reduce the problem but its always there and comes back fairly quickly.

its something you have to manage and non-synthetics can help.

 

Tristan I'm sorry but this isn't true. There is no scientific evidence as yet that proves that bees here in NZ are resistant to the strips. It may be that our threshold levels are now much lower than they were originally, meaning that we are actually treating when there are too many varroa in the hive to overcome. There are also differences in how people use the strips and when. Plus insect lifecycles are extremely quick and resistance can be bred in and out just as quickly. All the 'evidence' of resistance is anectodal and we are trying our best to find answers right this very moment. Im not sure which non-synthetics you are suggesting but often they are very toxic to bees plus their efficacy is often not very good or sporadic.

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Yes, but we aren't so interested in the Bee, who is just transport. It's the mites that need the right dose.

 

But if the bees aren't receiving the right dose, they aren't transporting it to the mites as designed.

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Despite all the Top Answers.....

 

I'm surprised as a scientist that you can say Tristan's statement isn't true. I think instead you could say there is currently no scientific evidence to confirm it is true.

 

Coming out of last Winter I had hives that had low mite levels and were treated but dwindled and died, anecdotal sure, but real world.

 

In regards to non-synthetics they are currently being successfully used both in replacing synthetics and supplementing synthetics. And Randy Oliver seems to think Oxalic and Glycerine work very well, perhaps you may want to take up the argument with him.

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I have no argument with anyone :)

 

A good old debate then :-)

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A good old debate then :)

:popcorn:

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I'm surprised as a scientist that you can say Tristan's statement isn't true.

 

If Sarah had only said that I would agree with you. But the very next sentence says pretty much exactly what you're moaning about.

 

 

Tristan I'm sorry but this isn't true. There is no scientific evidence as yet that proves that bees here in NZ are resistant to the strips.

 

 

 

Im not sure which non-synthetics you are suggesting but often they are very toxic to bees plus their efficacy is often not very good or sporadic.

 

 

In regards to non-synthetics they are currently being successfully used both in replacing synthetics and supplementing synthetics. And Randy Oliver seems to think Oxalic and Glycerine work very well, perhaps you may want to take up the argument with him.

 

In the context of OA and my situation I agree with Sarah. The second nuc I bought was riddled with varroa, the beekeeper I got them from was overly defensive about his OA treatment. Like anything else, if it's not done properly it can be as good as useless. I know this first hand. There is also a lot of beekeepers making their own vaporizers, bet ya half of them don't work properly.

 

 

Coming out of last Winter I had hives that had low mite levels and were treated but dwindled and died, anecdotal sure, but real world.

 

Did you count the mites on your dead colony? Mites aren't the only thing that kills bees.

 

 

A good old debate then :)

 

No debate, you're trolling.

 

 

Everybody makes mistakes, but if we cant trust the researchers working on varroa our bees are all screwed.

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A good old debate then :)

Well done. Unless @Sarah Cross is an exceptional person she'll be thinking "ah stuff ya" and won't be back.

We need these people.

Where's the unacceptable when you want it ?

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Tristan I'm sorry but this isn't true. There is no scientific evidence as yet that proves that bees here in NZ are resistant to the strips. It may be that our threshold levels are now much lower than they were originally, meaning that we are actually treating when there are too many varroa in the hive to overcome. There are also differences in how people use the strips and when. Plus insect lifecycles are extremely quick and resistance can be bred in and out just as quickly. All the 'evidence' of resistance is anectodal and we are trying our best to find answers right this very moment. Im not sure which non-synthetics you are suggesting but often they are very toxic to bees plus their efficacy is often not very good or sporadic.

i think you better have a chat with @Mark Goodwin about that. it was him (or his team) that did the initial testing at the time.

there is no "if" we have resistance in NZ, mark confirmed that years ago.

theres been plenty of anecdotal evidence since then.

 

yes resistance can be bred out but info from the states shows resistance comes back reasonably quickly once that product is reused.

for us it took 3-4 years of apivar use to be able to reuse bayvarol again.

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But if the bees aren't receiving the right dose, they aren't transporting it to the mites as designed.

Bees plural. They may all carry different doses everywhere, other bees, wax, mites etc; the average level will be lethal to mites, an order of magnitude different to doses that harm bees

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"anecdotal evidence"

Two words that never belong in the same sentence.

Lucky that @Sarah Cross is part of Mark's team then.

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Bees plural. They may all carry different doses everywhere, other bees, wax, mites etc; the average level will be lethal to mites, an order of magnitude different to doses that harm bees

 

There may be a little confusion between us here. I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to learn.

 

 

If the bees cant rub/walk on both sides of the strip you are not fully treating....

 

Is this not correct?

If so, the bees in the pettis test are not getting the full dose, therefore the mites are not getting the full dose.

Would it not be better to create a bee space between your stick and test strip so the bees can rub their backs on it like they would under normal circumstances?

I do applaud your motivation to the scientific approach.

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anecdotal evidence

 

Two words that never belong in the same sentence.

 

In fact it's an oxymoron.

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Two words that never belong in the same sentence.

:P to true

 

 

Lucky that @Sarah Cross is part of Mark's team then.

thats what surprises me with her comment :confused:. they did the testing back then. there was a fair bit about it at the Auckland conference. i spoke a bit with mark about it at the time and at other conferences.

 

it would be great to find DNA markers etc for it and learn about the actual mechanism etc.

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Is this not correct?

That's right, it's not correct. A misunderstanding of how the dose is delivered by the strip perhaps, but it hardly matters, it's a small thing. You are right in that I could redesign the strip holder (although I'm following someone's method), but I don't think it makes much difference. The tendency is probably to overdose as it's tricky to make the small size of strip. It's far more important to have active bees. I think that's a bigger variable.

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It's far more important to have active bees. I think that's a bigger variable.

Totally agree, if I understand it right, treatment "relies" on the chemical being passed on from bee too bee. Every bee touching the strip is never going to happen. (in the hive)

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they did the testing back then. there was a fair bit about it at the Auckland conference.

I'm sure she can speak for herself but I assume she was referring to the general presumption that it's nationwide. You and I have had that discussion before. Unfortunately AFAK the initial findings weren't published anywhere so I can't say anything about it, but I do remember Mark reporting it, and subsequently speculating that it would become widespread.

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it would be great to find DNA markers etc for it and learn about the actual mechanism etc.

There is some clue about this, but we don't know how it might apply to a population in New Zealand. It could be the same or different. Luck plays a part. It is good to see local work being done.

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I'm sure she can speak for herself but I assume she was referring to the general presumption that it's nationwide. You and I have had that discussion before. Unfortunately AFAK the initial findings weren't published anywhere so I can't say anything about it, but I do remember Mark reporting it, and subsequently speculating that it would become widespread.

thats where "anecdotal evidence" comes in. plenty of reports around NI of "used bayvarol/apistan and hive died from mites/pms" i think there was one on here that jar tested the hives and found plenty of mites, the treatment was ineffective.

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plenty of reports around NI of "used bayvarol/apistan and hive died from mites/pms"

Other than inspiration, such remarks have no evidential value. It could be nothing more than ppb rather than product failure, as I sure you know.

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It could be nothing more than ppb

Please elaborate Dave. What is ppb?

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