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Oxalic and glycerine

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10 minutes ago, Josh said:

 

I can't find, in the thread or your summary, a length of staple for ¾ boxes. I've found the ratio for the OA/GLY to reduce by, but not a length of staple. Any ideas?

 

Thanks

 

From memory 430mm

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I just chuck the FD length staples into 3/4 boxes 

 

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15 minutes ago, Josh said:

 

I can't find, in the thread or your summary, a length of staple for ¾ boxes. I've found the ratio for the OA/GLY to reduce by, but not a length of staple. Any ideas?

 

Thanks

 

I make mine 390mm this means that the staples do not drag below the bottom of the frame.

Plus my carry bin is 410mm long so the staples lie flat in it.  Much easier to handle the staples.

 

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21 minutes ago, Josh said:

 

I can't find, in the thread or your summary, a length of staple for ¾ boxes. I've found the ratio for the OA/GLY to reduce by, but not a length of staple. Any ideas?

 

Thanks

 

I’ve just  seen one post that said 325 so perhaps just ignore my posts and wait for an expert 🤭

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For petes sake, I can't believe this.......a 3/4 frame is near enough 180 deep.  So twice 180 = 360 plus across the top bar say 20mm so  total length of staple is 380mm. 

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1 hour ago, Josh said:

 

I can't find, in the thread or your summary, a length of staple for ¾ boxes. I've found the ratio for the OA/GLY to reduce by, but not a length of staple. Any ideas?

 

Thanks

 

330mm for a 3/4 staple or there abouts

The staple does not need to go to the bottom of the frame as it is a very long way from the end of the frame to the centrally located Staple

Its probably better to consider dose pro rata to a FD

 

Edited by Philbee
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29 minutes ago, Philbee said:

The staple does not need to go to the bottom of the frame as it is a very long way from the end of the frame to the centrally located Staple

Huh ??

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1 hour ago, Josh said:

 

I can't find, in the thread or your summary, a length of staple for ¾ boxes. I've found the ratio for the OA/GLY to reduce by, but not a length of staple. Any ideas?

 

Thanks

 

 

Thanks @nikki watts - but don’t credit me with the work, it’s me attempting to abbreviate 100 pages.

 

I am far from an authority here, and my experience is limited to 4 hives and reading the thread.

 

I struggled to know what to do.

 

I calculated the area of a full depth frame then calculated the area of a 3/4 frame. I decided that a 3/4 is actually about 78% the size of a full depth when I measured the ones I have.

 

So do then I had to decide if I was going for 78% of the length of full depth staple, 78% of the weight of a full staple or 78% of the volume of OA present in the full box. Depending on which one I calculated I got fractionally different answers.

 

In the end I made staples about 320mm long and dried them as much as I could with a 40% OA solution. My results were great.

 

I’d love to know what other have done with 3/4 brood boxes.

 

Im still collecting things to go into the summary. Wintering versus spring treatment and the recent thread on legalities are on the pending list. Any other comments/suggestions/corrections are happily added. The document isn’t intended to be seen as mine at all.

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2 hours ago, yesbut said:

For petes sake, I can't believe this.......a 3/4 frame is near enough 180 deep.  So twice 180 = 360 plus across the top bar say 20mm so  total length of staple is 380mm. 

 

This was my initial thought too, but if you do that for each staple you end up with a lot of OA in the box, and I’d prefer more staples with each one being shorter.

We are limited by the width of the tape, and I’d find it easier if the tape were a little narrower.

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2 hours ago, yesbut said:

Huh ??

By this I mean that when considering the distance that a staple should hand down the side of a frame one should be mindful that the Staple is only 53mm wide and a frame is 400 and something so if a frame is 190 deep, does the staple really need to go to the bottom of the frame?

Probably not.

Whats more important is the overall dose and the benchmark has been set by Randy's work at 20g/FD box OA.

Correct me if Im wrong @randyoliver

Edited by Philbee

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1 hour ago, cBank said:

 

Thanks @nikki watts - but don’t credit me with the work, it’s me attempting to abbreviate 100 pages.

 

I am far from an authority here, and my experience is limited to 4 hives and reading the thread.

 

I struggled to know what to do.

 

I calculated the area of a full depth frame then calculated the area of a 3/4 frame. I decided that a 3/4 is actually about 78% the size of a full depth when I measured the ones I have.

 

So do then I had to decide if I was going for 78% of the length of full depth staple, 78% of the weight of a full staple or 78% of the volume of OA present in the full box. Depending on which one I calculated I got fractionally different answers.

 

In the end I made staples about 320mm long and dried them as much as I could with a 40% OA solution. My results were great.

 

I’d love to know what other have done with 3/4 brood boxes.

 

Im still collecting things to go into the summary. Wintering versus spring treatment and the recent thread on legalities are on the pending list. Any other comments/suggestions/corrections are happily added. The document isn’t intended to be seen as mine at all.

Well done

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Must be getting close  to the end of page 99 🌞

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13 minutes ago, Bees said:

Must be getting close  to the end of page 99 🌞

 

Maybe get a mod to lock it now.

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59 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Whats more important is the overall dose and the benchmark has been set by Randy's work at 20g/FD box OA.

Correct me if Im wrong @randyoliver

 

2 hours ago, cBank said:

I calculated the area of a full depth frame then calculated the area of a 3/4 frame. I decided that a 3/4 is actually about 78% the size of a full depth when I measured the ones I have.

 

So do then I had to decide if I was going for 78% of the length of full depth staple, 78% of the weight of a full staple or 78% of the volume of OA present in the full box. Depending on which one I calculated I got fractionally different answers.

 

In the end I made staples about 320mm long and dried them as much as I could with a 40% OA solution. My results were great.

 

And this is where i get confused. We have a good guide on total volume OA for a FD, and does ¾ get 75% of this? And this is actually decided by the %OA and the volume absorbed by the staple. The volume absorbed is decided by the length. And if your staple is too short, you will wring out too much OA and your total volume/hive dose will drop.  

 

And hence my question.

 

Knowing the weight of OA/GLY a strip holds per cm. Could someone not tell us the length of strip would give us the correct dose for a ¾ box? Then when we make up too much to ensure saturation, and wring it out, we are giving the right weight of solution (then you start tampering with ratios and it gets complicated again.

 

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7 minutes ago, Josh said:

 

 

And this is where i get confused. We have a good guide on total volume OA for a FD, and does ¾ get 75% of this? And this is actually decided by the %OA and the volume absorbed by the staple. The volume absorbed is decided by the length. And if your staple is too short, you will wring out too much OA and your total volume/hive dose will drop.  

 

And hence my question.

 

Knowing the weight of OA/GLY a strip holds per cm. Could someone not tell us the length of strip would give us the correct dose for a ¾ box? Then when we make up too much to ensure saturation, and wring it out, we are giving the right weight of solution (then you start tampering with ratios and it gets complicated again.

 

You’re over complicating it. Just use FD length strips. Did you trim Bayvarol or Apivar strips to fit 3/4 frames? Hopefully not😄

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There is no problem using FD staples on 3/4 frames .

As the bees chew the tops out , just lift them up to adjust , and as the brood shrinks into winter , move  the good staples in from the outside and follow the cluster . 

There comes a point when there is no use having good staples out on unpopulated frames 

Edited by M4tt
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13 hours ago, dansar said:

You’re over complicating it. Just use FD length strips. Did you trim Bayvarol or Apivar strips to fit 3/4 frames? Hopefully not😄

 

Maybe I am, then Randy Oliver’s number may be more “ish”. Or maybe 3/4 hive users have been paying for product they didn’t need, or overdosing their hives. Maybe some of the synthetic failures were in fact toxicity. Those commercial product are all designed/made for FD boxes. 

 

I dont know, I’m a newbie geek who has always analysed stuff.

 

With the wide range of gear being used (6 vs 5 frame nucs, 8 vs 10 frame boxes, FD vs 3/4 boxes and nuc) there are a lot of hive dosing variations, so I think it would be useful to know weight OA/GLY per strip centimetre (standard EP & narrow EP) and Randy Oliver has already given us recommendation of total OA dose/FD hive. So then mathematically you can adjust for any given volume and strip strategy. 

 

I can work it out, but does anybody else think it’s worth knowing? Or is Dansar right & I’m just over thinking it.

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13 minutes ago, Josh said:

Or is Dansar right & I’m just over thinking it.

Yes. O/A strength is just one of a number of variables you have little or no control over.

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19 minutes ago, Josh said:

 

Maybe I am, then Randy Oliver’s number may be more “ish”. Or maybe 3/4 hive users have been paying for product they didn’t need, or overdosing their hives. Maybe some of the synthetic failures were in fact toxicity. Those commercial product are all designed/made for FD boxes. 

 

I dont know, I’m a newbie geek who has always analysed stuff.

 

With the wide range of gear being used (6 vs 5 frame nucs, 8 vs 10 frame boxes, FD vs 3/4 boxes and nuc) there are a lot of hive dosing variations, so I think it would be useful to know weight OA/GLY per strip centimetre (standard EP & narrow EP) and Randy Oliver has already given us recommendation of total OA dose/FD hive. So then mathematically you can adjust for any given volume and strip strategy. 

 

I can work it out, but does anybody else think it’s worth knowing? Or is Dansar right & I’m just over thinking it.

From a practical point of view the Hive is very tolerant of high doses of OA/GL that do not go as far as to wet the Bees

Even then it is difficult to kill a hive (I have tried)

The issue of very high doses is IMO more relevant to the issue of possible residues.
So the range we are considering is large enough  to kill mites but low enough to mitigate the risks of contaminating the Honey

 

My Opinion to date is that is a large range.

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4 hours ago, yesbut said:

Yes. O/A strength is just one of a number of variables you have little or no control over.

I didn't quite mean that.  Of course you have control over the o/a strength. It's all the other things like hive strength, mite level & viral load, reinfestation potential, one's own competence  (or otherwise) in bee husbandry ......commercials with limited time available to spend on individual hives have a different set of demands to make of a mite treatment that needn't apply to a hobbyist. A lazy one with only three hives like me anyway. I'm happy if I have  the equivalent of say three towels of about 40/50 spread through each hive and I renew them when they seem to need it every month or so. I don't have any in over my honey making season which is pretty much only the last fortnight of December plus a fortnight of January, apart from that month my bees are all stumbling over some degree of oxalic all year.  So far none of the neighbours who chomp on toast with my honey on it have died of oxalic poisoning, neither have any bees.

That's my KISS regime anyway. 

Edited by yesbut
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Some of the best hives we looked at today had staples through the spring, and then a shop towel smacked over the brood as we supered up. Lotsa bees , lotsa'ish honey.

By comparison the hives that did'nt have the o/a top up at supering had high mite levels ,,,,, whichI suppose is'nt surprising as the staples had been in since september.

 

Just an observation while basking out in the 31c sun. 

 

I am leaning towards the thought that we may well need to have drip feed O/A  available for most of the bee season.

Edited by jamesc
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I always prick drone brood to check for varroa and it’s definitely showing up in every hive I have checked around town - though in low numbers and these hives haven’t seen staples up to now.    Guaranteed every hive which hasn’t been treated around town will have varroa multiplying .  I am hoping that the staples will help me stave off the interlopers from untreated hives.

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