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Oxalic and glycerine


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6 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Its about to be published so Ill come back with the name of the publication.
Its easy to add some OA to a mix, 

He didnt say but I do believe it isnt with shop towels although that also needs to be clarified
It also backs up what has been going on here as well

40% does seem to be working well however so does 35%,

Randy's study is based on Efficacy as well as minimizing negative effects whereas my push back up to 40/50% has been  largely driven by a desire to reduce GL out of gut instinct more than anything.
 

There are also very good Beeks running 40% here as well and their input has been a factor in my thinking also

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Hi All, I don't have time to follow every chat group, but I got a notification about this one.  I'm interested in your experiences with OA/gly in NZ, so please feel free to contact me directly at

You are obviously still young . I try and leave the bathroom before the steam has cleared .

This is an issue that comes up often There tends to be two ways that Beeks place Staples and one way results in less Brood damage. Some Beeks remove an edge frame, spread the remaining frames o

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3 hours ago, Philbee said:

There are also very good Beeks running 40% here as well and their input has been a factor in my thinking also

 

I got to a small site of four hives this afternoon.  I thought I'd put staples in a couple of weeks ago, and that's what it said in my records, but when I got there I saw mites in drone brood.  There were no staples in the hives.  The 35% must be working just fine at the moment as these were the first mites I've seen for months.

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25 minutes ago, CraBee said:

 

I got to a small site of four hives this afternoon.  I thought I'd put staples in a couple of weeks ago, and that's what it said in my records, but when I got there I saw mites in drone brood.  There were no staples in the hives.  The 35% must be working just fine at the moment as these were the first mites I've seen for months.

 35% is a good mix there is no doubt about it.
My inclination to move up in OA strength has been based solely on the desire to reduce GL.
What really pleases me about Randy's work is that he ended up at 44% because it was the most effective for him and I ended up at 40% because it is the leanest GL mix that mixes easily. (past 45% OA the solution has a tendency to gel).

Put these two different approaches together and we have solution that is probably about where the industry will settle.
 

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Interesting, hopefully they have found a total amount of oa given per hive, to me that's the most important factor, or even if it can be worked to gm's per frame of bees, then the ratio or size of strip is not so important, however I do understand where Randy is coming from it's about efficiency of the mix, but total volume is also important I believe.

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I found my 1st mites of the season 2 days ago in drone brood.  They were in a 3 box hive that had 4 strips per box.  The interesting thing is that i put these card board strips in around March/Apirl. They have lasted in the hive for around 6 months.  Most of them were in tack.  

 

I did a tougue taste test on them all and about half had no ox in them. Half had a tiny amount and 1 had a good amount on 1 side.  So I conclude that most of the ox has been absorbed by the hive and the cardboard strips out lasted the treatment. This is a good result for a strong 3 box hive. I could resoak the strips and use them again...but i will not as a disease control measure.  

 

So now i have to think just because i have strips does not mean they are doing anything as they may be spent.  

 

I put new strips in and will monitor results.  Now i will pull them each visit and taste them just to see how long they last in a strong hive.  I think 3 months would be a good result. 

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3 hours ago, tony said:

Oh whoops didn't see your last post Phil, kinda answers my questions, so looking now 4 of your big strips may have been to grunty,? 

Possibly but not necessarily

Efficacy is easy to ascertain, correct overall dose isnt so.

Whats more, the total dose is dependent on the means of delivery and a Staple that gets chewed out and removed isnt going to deliver its total dose to the hive, but the strength of the solution that does get to the mite will be a deciding factor in whether or not it dies.

The figure of 18g per box is one that Randy decided to use and it was probably from his gut instinct that he settled on that figure or at least from very limited trials given the short time frame of his trial.
Its also easy to become overly focused on the active ingredient OA, when the GL could possibly be a contributor to some of the negative effects seen.

The 25mm Staple is an answer to the Brood damage and it just happens to fit well with the 40/60 ratio / 18g dose.
Without intending to take away from Randy's work, I will point out that when I decided to test 25mm Staples at 40% the 15g-21g (3 or 4 Staples) total dose was an inevitable outcome anyway.


 

 

 

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1 hour ago, flash4cash said:

So I conclude that most of the ox has been absorbed by the hive

Not necessarily a  correct conclusion

The solution has a way of mysteriously disappearing from the strips over winter and it isnt taken by the Bees.

Ive written about this previously.
OA Strips and Staples absorb water over winter and this somehow leads to the Strips losing effectiveness.
I see it regularly on outside frame Staples that the Winter Bees have not covered, yet in the same hives the surviving  Staples that have been in or near the Brood nest all winter still have Acid in them
I conclude that an Autumn Staple sees the cluster shrink away from it and loses its Acid and is then covered with bees again in the Spring as the Hive expands
Unfortunately the Staple has nothing to offer the Hive by early Spring so should be removed by Augest/ Sept and replaced,

In my outfit anyway.

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21 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Possibly but not necessarily

Efficacy is easy to ascertain, correct overall dose isnt so.

Whats more, the total dose is dependent on the means of delivery and a Staple that gets chewed out and removed isnt going to deliver its total dose to the hive, but the strength of the solution that does get to the mite will be a deciding factor in whether or not it dies.

The figure of 18g per box is one that Randy decided to use and it was probably from his gut instinct that he settled on that figure or at least from very limited trials given the short time frame of his trial.
Its also easy to become overly focused on the active ingredient OA, when the GL could possibly be a contributor to some of the negative effects seen.

The 25mm Staple is an answer to the Brood damage and it just happens to fit well with the 40/60 ratio / 18g dose.
Without intending to take away from Randy's work, I will point out that when I decided to test 25mm Staples at 40% the 15g-21g (3 or 4 Staples) total dose was an inevitable outcome anyway.


 

 

 

Adding to this,
There are thousands upon thousands of Hives around the country pumping right now, all with those big wide Staple in at 35%.

Personally I dont mind the Brood damage when it does occur.

The 25mm Staple is simply a refinement for those who dont want to see that damage in any of their Hives
 

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On 8/10/2018 at 8:12 PM, Philbee said:

Might be a good idea to source a comprehensive material Data sheet for that Jamo (producer Statement) 

 

What really makes my day is when Beeks who have brought thousands of Staples order thousands more.
I dont really give a Hoot about the money side of it but hearing the stories is a real buzz.

Today 10000 were ordered by two repeat customers and also a phone conversation with another  Beek who was over the moon  that She couldn't find a single mite with Alcohol washes in two commercial Staple trial sites that are expanding well.

She had a visiting Beek with her who was equally bemused.
Another phone call was from an employee of a large outfit who has been so impressed with what he's seen at work that he wants some for his own  hives.
Just another day

 
 

MSDs are on the ovaboard web site

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3 minutes ago, glynn said:

MSDs are on the ovaboard web site

The MSD relates to normal use, however next level up product data is required IMO as thats where NZ is going.

When someone asks whats in a product an MSDS is not always relevant.
We are all going to be faced with this reality shortly 

 

 

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The transfer rate of ox is the next important thing to consider.  It appears to me through the cardboard strips that alot of ox is delivered to the hive at the very begining and then dropping away.  If it was modeled it would probably look like an exponential decline. What would be best is a constant release throughout the treatment period. This is where I think drier strips are better than wet ones. 

 

It will be interesting to see which delivery material deliveries the ox at the most constant rate. 

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3 hours ago, flash4cash said:

The transfer rate of ox is the next important thing to consider.  It appears to me through the cardboard strips that alot of ox is delivered to the hive at the very begining and then dropping away.  If it was modeled it would probably look like an exponential decline. What would be best is a constant release throughout the treatment period. This is where I think drier strips are better than wet ones. 

 

It will be interesting to see which delivery material deliveries the ox at the most constant rate. 

These will

They weigh 6.25g each and will hold 12.5g solution.
At 40% solution strength thats 5g OA per Staple.

They are 4 layer laminates.
My plan is that these could go in the center Brood and the wide ones further out.

They are more expensive though.

However this is offset a bit by the lower freight costs as a pail will hold nearly 800.

more narrows.jpg

Pail of narrows.jpg

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40 minutes ago, Mummzie said:

Did your mother not let you play with her sewing machine?

?

 

I admire your efforts. It was mind bogglingly boring doing 150 meters, let alone the kms you are producing.

 

Spare a thought for the sewing machines

The people who design and build them are Heroes

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1 hour ago, Philbee said:

These will

They weigh 6.25g each and will hold 12.5g solution.
At 40% solution strength thats 5g OA per Staple.

They are 4 layer laminates.
My plan is that these could go in the center Brood and the wide ones further out.

They are more expensive though.

However this is offset a bit by the lower freight costs as a pail will hold nearly 800.

more narrows.jpg

Pail of narrows.jpg

 

What is the price on these ones?

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26 minutes ago, CraBee said:

 

What is the price on these ones?

Dont know yet.

There are some wins on price here but probably not enough to hold the price down
A pail will hold 800 so that halves the freight cost for 800 staples.

They only use 2 layers folded over to make 4 so that reduces the Tape by a third,

All the stitching will be done  in one run so that part of the price structure doesn't change.
They use more thread but thats not a major cost

The Machines run slower so that is a major cost

There are two over lockers in the setup so thats a cost also

10 cents will be the max increase per Staple Id say, probably less.

Having said that, Mainfreight just put freight charges up 3.5%

The double row stitch version without edge protection will remain at 39 cents+gst, including freight

 

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@Philbee I am really loving your innovation and effort here. I am sure there is another topic on this somewhere but does the government give the bee industry any money to conduct reserach? If so how much and who administers it. 

 

I am thinking they could run some trail work on this for us. If we were to nail it and go synthetic free it would be a boast to our international reputation. 

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9 minutes ago, tony said:

Did a 35% mix today, what I found it absorbs better and faster into overboard, makes sense.

How many people out there using this as there only treatment  now? I am really interested in how this treatment plans out.

I bought a box of Bayvarol a few weeks ago as I did'nt have the patience to wait for Phil bee's staples to make their way down here. They have since arrived and  I have not bought anymore Bayvarol ..... for better or for worse, til death do us part .....  

The bees are ticking on, they look healthy, are expanding and making honey ..... what more could you ask for ?

My dilemma will come as we start to take more  honey off, hopefully, in February. All things being equal the bees will be super strong  so will the staples have the staying power to hold the mites at bay through until wintering ?

I guess we'll do some testing and  make  a decision based on the mite loading ..... Apivar or staples ?

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1 hour ago, kaihoka said:

@Philbee 

How are the machines running .

Have you broken many needles .

And had the patience testing experience of rethreading the over locker loopers.

I hope you have several pairs of decent long tweezers .

I love Over lockers

My first was an old Union Special and it was incredibly finicky and difficult to set the loopers.

Ive moved on a bit now though.
The only time I break needles is when the presser foot isnt latched home properly.

Sewing machine mechanics are very skilled engineers Id say

As for tweezers, yes they are my new tool of choice along with a Screw Driver and torch.

Im glad I found the magical world of sewing machines

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