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Oxalic and glycerine

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2 hours ago, cBank said:

 

I didn’t do a sugar shake at the weekend due to the suggestion that it builds slowly.

I’ll do one next sunny day and see. I hope to add some Oa/Gl staples at the same time, unless anyone thinks having both in at the same time is a bad idea.

Its definitely a novel idea and one that is/has been considered elsewhere.
I have no idea if it is wise or not

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On 20/08/2018 at 5:33 PM, cBank said:

 

I didn’t do a sugar shake at the weekend due to the suggestion that it builds slowly.

I’ll do one next sunny day and see. I hope to add some Oa/Gl staples at the same time, unless anyone thinks having both in at the same time is a bad idea.

When I asked Mark Goodwin he said that there has been no work done at all to find out if the oxalic acid destroys the active ingredient in the Apivar or any other strip, so you would be negating any claim of the supposed ineffectiveness of the Apivar, or any other strip. One could only guess at the toxicity of the resultant chemical produced by the  reaction. 

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On 19/08/2018 at 8:39 AM, cBank said:

Thanks @dansar. Note that it refers to dosing the brood chamber, so is a frame of bees referring to brood chamber only (as I assumed) or the upper box of stores (as is being advised here)? Or are you supposed to count frames of bees, then put the required number of strips in, but all in the brood chamber? I’m not trying to be difficult, I hope it doesn’t come across that way...

 

A different issue - Apistan is sold by at least one supplier without the instructions (I assume they are breaking down big boxes) and they give what seems to made up information, in that they suggest reducing the dose from the manufacturer doses. It’s also possibly requiring a conversion for 3/4 frames, although I dosed at full strength as per the online instructions, but to brood box only.

CBank, it is offence under the ACVM Act. to sell a registered pesticide such as Apistan without an approved label.

Are you sure these folk are selling Apistan?

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2 hours ago, Don Mac said:

CBank, it is offence under the ACVM Act. to sell a registered pesticide such as Apistan without an approved label.

Are you sure these folk are selling Apistan?

 

Yup. Big supplier too. It has a label but no instructions and they tell you what to do at the counter. The verbal instructions don’t match the manufacturer instructions.

Edited by cBank

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I started to doubt myself about the packaging so went searching. This is what I found and matches my memory.

Google suggestions aren’t very helpful.

 

FFEC71DD-25DB-4B55-A8BA-9E12DE8855F3.jpeg

A54B7E51-B2BA-40B9-B33E-718544429607.jpeg.ef5bde8fda066b37e600e5f5600d2415.jpeg

Edited by cBank
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52 minutes ago, cBank said:

I started to doubt myself about the packaging so went searching. This is what I found and matches my memory.

Google suggestions aren’t very helpful.

 

FFEC71DD-25DB-4B55-A8BA-9E12DE8855F3.jpeg

A54B7E51-B2BA-40B9-B33E-718544429607.jpeg.ef5bde8fda066b37e600e5f5600d2415.jpeg

You will be right . It’s been mentioned on here before .

They really need to accompany the sale with a copy of the label 

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I checked 8 of my hives today that I treated with Ox/glyc on 12 August. 30% mix as per Philbee's instructions. I put 4 staples into single brood hives and 7 staples into double broods (maybe too many?). When I put the staples in the hives were building nicely. 2-4 frames of brood with good stores and pollen coming in.

The hives today did not look very good. The bee numbers I would say are down by about half. Not enough bees covering the brood. Queen still laying. I did an alcohol wash on two hives, 7 mites and 11 mites on 300 bees per sample. The hives have gone backwards quite a bit.

@Philbee any advice please. I have only done ox/gly on 3 small apiaries (about 24 of my 350 hives).

Have I put too many staples in per hive at this time of the year? What are everyone else's results so far this spring?

I will be checking 4 hives tomorrow that were pumping when I put the staples in, so will let you know how they look after going through them.

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28 minutes ago, MackAp said:

I checked 8 of my hives today that I treated with Ox/glyc on 12 August. 30% mix as per Philbee's instructions. I put 4 staples into single brood hives and 7 staples into double broods (maybe too many?). When I put the staples in the hives were building nicely. 2-4 frames of brood with good stores and pollen coming in.

The hives today did not look very good. The bee numbers I would say are down by about half. Not enough bees covering the brood. Queen still laying. I did an alcohol wash on two hives, 7 mites and 11 mites on 300 bees per sample. The hives have gone backwards quite a bit.

@Philbee any advice please. I have only done ox/gly on 3 small apiaries (about 24 of my 350 hives).

Have I put too many staples in per hive at this time of the year? What are everyone else's results so far this spring?

I will be checking 4 hives tomorrow that were pumping when I put the staples in, so will let you know how they look after going through them.

Hi

Im not sure which costumer your are?
30% sounds low for my advice so can you provide some details on that

If you have high mite counts 12 days after a treatment then the Hives probably  wern't flash when treated as the pre treatment Brood is obviously full of Mites
Did you mix and soak your own Chemicals?
Many many questions

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Hi Phil,  yes did the weaker mix 30% oxalic as per your instructions and mixed myself, staples drained of excess ox/glyc etc. I thought the weaker mix would be less harsh on the bees whilst still effective on mites. Yes could have been a high mite load pre treatment. I saw lots of dead mites on board under mesh floor so no doubt it is effective on mites but just seems to have been quite harsh on bees. I didn't see any unusually high dead bees on hive floor or outside on ground. But the Bee numbers have defiantly declined. My other hives treated with baycarol don't have any bee number decrease and I have sites close to this one. I went out and checked the weight of the ox bag and gly container to check I mixed the correct quantities and yes ok there. 

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My name is David Mackenzie, I ordered a bucket of 400.

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Hi David did you put the strips in the brood nest and are they ripping into them. I will be back just got someone round

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Yes, staples amongst the brood, tried to put them just on the edge of the brood to not block off the bees emerging, but some went over brood cells as found some dead emerging bees that couldn't get out. Double box hives have excluders so only honey in the top, 3 staples in these if the hives had a 2nd box. The Bee numbers were particularly reduced in these top boxes. I've been beekeeping for 9 years so I'm no newbie... just new to ox/gly. 

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1 minute ago, MackAp said:

Yes, staples amongst the brood, tried to put them just on the edge of the brood to not block off the bees emerging, but some went over brood cells as found some dead emerging bees that couldn't get out. Double box hives have excluders so only honey in the top, 3 staples in these if the hives had a 2nd box. The Bee numbers were particularly reduced in these top boxes. I've been beekeeping for 9 years so I'm no newbie... just new to ox/gly. 

Long story short

Staple that are on the edge of the Brood are not in the Brood so that is doing  you no favors to start with.
The treatment isnt hard on Bees.

The reason the Hives appear smaller 12 days after treatment is because they were on the verge of collapse when the treatment went in and will not turn around until the treatment has been through a brood cycle

The fact that the Bayvarol treated hives appear to be better is a mystery, maybe they were better hives, maybe it is an illusion.
One possibility is that 70% GL in a Staple that is not properly drained is a lot of water attracting potential.
That Staple should have weighed no more than 30g
Im also at a loss as to where I suggested 30% OA.
Ive been known to suggest that we should aim to get down to that level if it is found to work so can you post a photo of where Ive written that instruction? 

Also, did you do the mix by weight or volume? 

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25 minutes ago, Philbee said:

The treatment isnt hard on Bees.

 

I reckon it is harder on bees than not having them in.  The oxalic does/can affect bees.  I know it's not the same delivery method- when you dribble oxalic and syrup- bees die. Not many but they do -whether is caused by ingestion or contact? (and it's a very small oxalic dose compared to impregnated cards/gib)

I have seen brood areas actively move away from cardboard strips- like they are avoiding it-  I know it's cardboard and not the Gib. 

And belief bees need to be in an increasing/expanding mood for best results.  

 

@MackAp- your hives sounded sick, the winter bees probably stressed and keeling over now, young emerging bees may be poorly fed/sick (dying prematurely),  and the mite wash is still high after 11 days. 

The gib on my back yard hospital hive knocked the poo out of mite numbers, over weeks, as the brood/mites hatched. 

And I got the impression that the hive lost bees- but as above thoughts it was suffering. 

Take some photos and share those.  Members love seeing those. 

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Organics like Formic and Oxalic acids are tough on sick bees suffering from the effects of varroa infestation. You will get quite a population drop with organic treatments in this case that you won’t see with synthetics like Bayvarol , hence the difference in the appearance of your hives .

In my experience anything coming out of winter with a sugar shake over 3 is going to , or on the point of, collapse . 

 

As for the dead emerging Bees , yes the staples can get in the way . I don’t believe it’s a problem in the big scheme of things . 

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1 hour ago, Philbee said:

Long story short

Staple that are on the edge of the Brood are not in the Brood so that is doing  you no favors to start with.
The treatment isnt hard on Bees.

The reason the Hives appear smaller 12 days after treatment is because they were on the verge of collapse when the treatment went in and will not turn around until the treatment has been through a brood cycle

The fact that the Bayvarol treated hives appear to be better is a mystery, maybe they were better hives, maybe it is an illusion.
One possibility is that 70% GL in a Staple that is not properly drained is a lot of water attracting potential.
That Staple should have weighed no more than 30g
Im also at a loss as to where I suggested 30% OA.
Ive been known to suggest that we should aim to get down to that level if it is found to work so can you post a photo of where Ive written that instruction? 

Also, did you do the mix by weight or volume? 

 

Thanks for the replies  so far guys.

@Philbee Under your mixing ratio instructions you said you prefer a 40% mix by weight. You then go on to mention a weaker mix could be 30% by weight, which is the one I went for. Being a first time trying I thought I would go for the weaker one. Your instructions also mention that it is suitable for all excess solution is drained off... alternatively the excess can be left in the pails as it will accumulate in the bottom of the pail, then before using the bottom layer each staple can be scraped clean. Well, I havnt used the bottom layer yet. Just going off the instructions you supplied. I'll weigh a remaining staple tomorrow.

The bayvarol treated hives being better is no illusion - as I said I am no newbie. But I am yet to go through the other 2 sites which I treated with ox/gly which I will do tomorrow. So will report back about the state of these tomorrow. I agree about the staples should be over the brood (as all strips bayvarol etc should be). Its just that the staples are quite wide and having 4 staples effectively 8 strips between frames is covering a lot of brood so early, effectively trapping quite a big area of emerging bees so early in the season. Across 4 full staples you are possibly trapping 1 full frame of brood/emerging bees, which is a lot of bees at this time of the year -  well that was my thinking anyway.

Also Im not trying to knock or put down this form of treatment. I think you have done a great job so far @Philbee and others, and Im looking to perfect this treatment for myself.

If it is in fact collapse from mites, then I have never had this so severe before and again it seems strange it has only happened to this site only. But there is a first for everything.

Look forward to. reporting back tomorrow.

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6 minutes ago, M4tt said:

Organics like Formic and Oxalic acids are tough on sick bees suffering from the effects of varroa infestation. You will get quite a population drop with organic treatments in this case that you won’t see with synthetics like Bayvarol , hence the difference in the appearance of your hives .

In my experience anything coming out of winter with a sugar shake over 3 is going to , or on the point of, collapse . 

 

As for the dead emerging Bees , yes the staples can get in the way . I don’t believe it’s a problem in the big scheme of things . 

Thanks for that info @M4tt I use MAQ's  in late summer when there are heaps of bees so havent noticed big bee number drops. But have always used bayvarol in spring not organic, so you are probably right. Ive only got around to doing mite counts this spring... yeah yeah slack I know.

Cheers.

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3 minutes ago, MackAp said:

Thanks for that info @M4tt I use MAQ's  in late summer when there are heaps of bees so havent noticed big bee number drops. But have always used bayvarol in spring not organic, so you are probably right. Ive only got around to doing mite counts this spring... yeah yeah slack I know.

Cheers.

I had a third of my hives looking very ill mid winter , so I got in then after multiple treatment failures , with the staples . 

After a massive drop off in Bees they are well and truly holding  their own now and moving forward , building up .

Just when you have created the solution to varroa control , that works , varroa change the rules and get a step ahead again . 

I now like to think of varroa management as very fluid with moving goal posts . 

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I have just re read my generic instructions and yes the 30% is used as a possible dose

 

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I don't use more than %30 but I don't use Gib tape with the ovaboard that's the strongest I've used .

I tried using phills mix that was 50/50 on Gib tape but it hammered the hives I think that Phill had worked out that there was a difference in the mix.

 

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21 minutes ago, glynn said:

I don't use more than %30 but I don't use Gib tape with the ovaboard that's the strongest I've used .

I tried using phills mix that was 50/50 on Gib tape but it hammered the hives I think that Phill had worked out that there was a difference in the mix.

 

I used 50% initially but the only reason that I stopped was that it just seemed a lot and we needed to pull back as much as possible.
The rules say that as own use produces of Varroa treatments we are responsible for ensuring our treatments dont leave residues in the Honey.
This is why Ive pulled back from 50/50 and the 30% reference in the instructions is a reflection of this.
I tread a narrow path in this work and will say that it is disappointing when a costumer goes straight to a public forum before consulting me with a possible issue.
In my view this counts against this costumer.
A while back a costumer purchased a single Queen from me and within a week could not find her in the Hive.
She was a cracker of a Queen and without question I drove 100km to meet the Beek and find his Queen.

She was there.
People that are reasonable with me will always enjoy very good service
For example tonight packed 800 Staples for an outfit that will only be paying the freight.

Another outfit has its boss in Aussie working in the dessert to pay the crews wages back here
They will be getting their 400 trial Staples for free also.

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43 minutes ago, Philbee said:

People that are reasonable with me will always enjoy very good service
For example tonight packed 800 Staples for an outfit that will only be paying the freight.

Another outfit has its boss in Aussie working in the dessert to pay the crews wages back here
They will be getting their 400 trial Staples for free also

 

Dang, I must be unreasonable ?

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Also this is also new and inproving all the time.

I have not touched our vaporizer since last year I only did half my hives with the ovaboard last winter, they all came through the winter and never looked back.

In the end I threw the vaporizer in the shed no more gen set noise ect.

I don't have enough experience with the Gib tape the ones I used my mix on did ok some just hummed the ones that had the stiff brew got knocked back but don't have verroa. I have used towels and different cardboards ect .

Me and Nan stiched up 3 layer Gib tape and gave it a go I've not used Phills strips but I may need to give them a go if there's a art in making the strips this way .

I use ovaboard as I can make it in the quantity I need and I use the mix from Argentina as that's what got me started on this.

It is all good stuff but it is experimental you have to make sure it works for you.

My bees may work better with oxcalic but I now feel like I don't need to worry about resistance when it happens

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@Philbee, having problems worked through here is really useful and adds to what you are doing in a big way. Having a poor result discussed is very helpful.

 

I just wish you sold smaller quantities, but I totally get that this would be serving a market that’s painful to deal with.

I’ll be mixing up your recipe just as soon as I can work out this sewing machine threading tangle.

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@Philbee Mate, this forum thread is about ox and gly. And a lot of it is about your gib staples method. Again Im not knocking it. Just sharing my experience with it so you and others who have used this method could give me some advice from what I have seen so far. And some of the advice given makes sense. I hope you arent taking this personally. Just wanted to share my experience so far and get help. Hope this doesnt mean you are going to charge me double next time :) 

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