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Oxalic and glycerine

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9 hours ago, StephenP said:

15000um

Correction, 1500um. A bit big with the extra 0 that I originally posted. 😀

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3 hours ago, StephenP said:

Correction, 1500um. A bit big with the extra 0 that I originally posted. 😀

is that a flash way of saying 1.5mm :)

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11 hours ago, ChrisM said:

is that a flash way of saying 1.5mm :)

Basically, yes. It's the unit used by the manufacturer to describe the thickness of paper.

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1 minute ago, Alastair said:

Went back to the very badly mite infested hive today, 19 days after the oxalic strips went in. The bee population had reduced to 3 frames and pretty much all capped brood was dead. I did a mite count and it's running a bit over 100 mites from a 300 bee sample. So on the face of it the mites have not reduced, but considering the bees population has dropped a lot which would concentrate the mites, maybe the total mite population has dropped. Also have to consider that a lot of mites could be trapped in dead brood, so not really sure if the OA strips have had any effect on mite levels in this hive or not.

 

But in anycase the hive would not survive, no point continuing with this hive, I decided they have suffered enough and have given them a frame of good brood with bees and some bayvarol. The pic shows the hive now with the frame of brood and bees added in the middle with a bayvarol strip each side of it.

 

Of the other hives at the site most of them have lower mite numbers than 19 days ago although not as low as I hoped. I've put new OA strips in most of them, but a few hives, i think 5, I have called it quits and put bayvarol in. Although only one of them, other than the really bad hive, was bad enough to need new brood. I've marked the bayvaroled hives on the lid cos I won't bother opening them for a couple of months, but I'll continue to monitor the OA treated hives.

 

 

IMG_1858.jpg

Yes, once the hive is tuckered out with mite load- the ox\glycerine finishes it off. Bayvarol could have worked better. 

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Good info Gino. For me, the take away from this seems to be that the hives I treated with OA earlier when they were in good shape seem to be doing well, in fact I checked some other sites yesterday and they are jam packed with bees and pumping. But leave things too late and there could be problems. 

 

Good thing about bayvarol it has a 5 year lifespan so I'll probably keep a box and take a few packs out when I'm treating to do any bad hives but do the rest with OA.

 

Having said that I'm still very early in the learning curve with OA but that's what I'll probably do next spring. 

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5 minutes ago, Gino de Graaf said:

Yes, once the hive is tuckered out with mite load- the ox\glycerine finishes it off. Bayvarol could have worked better. 

This could be, however what I take out of this portion of the thread during March is that the low dose treatments are too low.

That I stand by my March 13 comments.

In general faced with a very mite laden hive I would give them OAV immediately AND two frames of capped brood from another hive AND the normal (high) dose OAG strips. If then the hive makes no recovery and still falls over I'll assume just about any treatment would not have saved such a hive. As much as I'm keen to experiment I was never keen on this experiment.

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13 minutes ago, ChrisM said:

This could be, however what I take out of this portion of the thread during March is that the low dose treatments are too low.

That I stand by my March 13 comments.

In general faced with a very mite laden hive I would give them OAV immediately AND two frames of capped brood from another hive AND the normal (high) dose OAG strips. If then the hive makes no recovery and still falls over I'll assume just about any treatment would not have saved such a hive. As much as I'm keen to experiment I was never keen on this experiment.

 

28 minutes ago, Alastair said:

But in anycase the hive would not survive, no point continuing with this hive, I decided they have suffered enough and have given them a frame of good brood with bees and some bayvarol. The pic shows the hive now with the frame of brood and bees added in the middle with a bayvarol strip each side of it.

At what point in the year do fold these ones up, and concentrate on the full hives that will happily make it through the winter and be able to be split in the spring.

There's a big difference between a young 3 frame expanding nuc, and a three frame old dwindling compromised hive. Sometimes less is best.

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6 minutes ago, Dennis Crowley said:

 

At what point in the year do fold these ones up, and concentrate on the full hives that will happily make it through the winter and be able to be split in the spring.

There's a big difference between a young 3 frame expanding nuc, and a three frame old dwindling compromised hive. Sometimes less is best.

I still have an attitude to save a hive. Which usually means too many hives

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42 minutes ago, Dennis Crowley said:

At what point in the year do fold these ones up, and concentrate on the full hives that will happily make it through the winter and be able to be split in the spring.

There's a big difference between a young 3 frame expanding nuc, and a three frame old dwindling compromised hive. Sometimes less is best.

In the bigger picture I agree everyone has some strategy, even no strategy is a 'strategy'.

But in this thread we're interested in the performance of OAG and varroa treatments generally and to learn out its limits and if possible to improve to the point where it is idiot proof. 

So, what you discuss belongs in another thread, but I don't want to cause offence over it.

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It was about this time last year we started picking up problems with the O/A .... dead and dying hives.  

I  walked away from the collapsing hives. Now is not the season to try to resucisitate. Unless you have plenty of time and money it's a waste of both.

The wonderfull thing with bees is that you can make a two frame nuc in September and get honey at Christmas.

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1 hour ago, ChrisM said:

This could be, however what I take out of this portion of the thread during March is that the low dose treatments are too low.

That I stand by my March 13 comments.

In general faced with a very mite laden hive I would give them OAV immediately AND two frames of capped brood from another hive AND the normal (high) dose OAG strips. If then the hive makes no recovery and still falls over I'll assume just about any treatment would not have saved such a hive. As much as I'm keen to experiment I was never keen on this experiment.

 

I think Alistair was testing what level of low dosage he could get away with, the dose he used probably too low, I don't think the recovery plan was as important as giving the testing a chance...

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23 minutes ago, jamesc said:

It was about this time last year we started picking up problems with the O/A .... dead and dying hives.  

I  walked away from the collapsing hives. Now is not the season to try to resucisitate. Unless you have plenty of time and money it's a waste of both.

The wonderfull thing with bees is that you can make a two frame nuc in September and get honey at Christmas.

Around here you wouldn't get much.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Dennis Crowley said:

 

At what point in the year do fold these ones up, and concentrate on the full hives that will happily make it through the winter and be able to be split in the spring.

There's a big difference between a young 3 frame expanding nuc, and a three frame old dwindling compromised hive. Sometimes less is best.

 

There's good arguments both ways. 

 

However I'm in Auckland, not quite the winterless North but close. The hive pictured will have excellent chance of recovery, pretty much 100%. I'm not intending to look at it for around a month but at that time I'll put up some pics, I'm pretty sure they will show a very small cluster, but one with healthy brood and capable of a slow build up through winter. The hive has a second box over an excluder full of honey.

 

The only risk is the queen will now be pretty compromised and could die in winter in which case it is over for the hive, but more likely she will make it, and then what I would do, being a cheapskate, is pinch her and leave a couple of queen cells when they try to swarm.

Edited by Alastair
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Alastair said:

 

There's good arguments both ways. 

 

However I'm in Auckland, not quite the winterless North but close. The hive pictured will have excellent chance of recovery, pretty much 100%. I'm not intending to look at it for around a month but at that time I'll put up some pics, I'm pretty sure they will show a very small cluster, but one with healthy brood and capable of a slow build up through winter. The hive has a second box over an excluder full of honey.

 

 

 Hi @Alastair 

My opinion but I am keen to see the results of this because it would save me work.  

 

With so few bees I would put honey from the top box on each side of the brood, and get rid of the top box, this will do two things in my opinion.  

1) less room for so few bees to warm, therefore less stress on a weakened hive.

2) because of the high varroa loading and capped dead brood I would (if it was my hive) assume high virus loading maybe even corrorapa, therefore by taking those maybe diseased frames out and replacing them with honey from the top box I would be lowering pathogen/virus levels in the weekend hive and give the hive a better survival chance.

The above would be my plan of action and because of past experiences I would be making some assumptions. 

 

Therefore very keen to see your results.

 

Oops also because I class those removed brood frames as diseased I would put them in the to be  water blasted pile.

Edited by fieldbee
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Good points Fieldbee, I did move honey down in some of the other hives. But this hive had wasps walking in and out unchallenged so i didn't want honey by the door. To counter the wasps I moved the bees from the edge where they were to the middle and put an entrance gaurd with the entrance also in the middle. If it was real serious I would have removed all unused frames and just left an empty space except for frames the bees are on, but in this case I think the bees will get healthy enough soon enough to take back control, we shall see.

 

Re the corrorapa, you are right, I'm just lazy. I think in time the bees will start to reclaim and clean the frames of dead brood, rather them, than me. Yup, I'm lazy. 🙄 😮 😏 

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1 minute ago, Alastair said:

Good points Fieldbee, I did move honey down in some of the other hives. But this hive had wasps walking in and out unchallenged so i didn't want honey by the door. To counter the wasps I moved the bees from the edge where they were to the middle and put an entrance gaurd with the entrance also in the middle. If it was real serious I would have removed all unused frames and just left an empty space except for frames the bees are on, but in this case I think the bees will get healthy enough soon enough to take back control, we shall see.

 

Re the corrorapa, you are right, I'm just lazy. I think in time the bees will start to reclaim and clean the frames of dead brood, rather them, than me. Yup, I'm lazy. 🙄 😮 😏 

Its always good to know someones reasons for things and hey we could all learn something.  Find with bees I am always learning,  sometimes unlearning and relearning (if that makes sense)

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1 hour ago, fieldbee said:

 Find with bees I am always learning,  sometimes unlearning and relearning (if that makes sense)

 

LOL well said i know the feeling. 😄

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On 24/03/2020 at 6:50 PM, ChrisM said:

In the bigger picture I agree everyone has some strategy, even no strategy is a 'strategy'.

But in this thread we're interested in the performance of OAG and varroa treatments generally and to learn out its limits and if possible to improve to the point where it is idiot proof. 

So, what you discuss belongs in another thread, but I don't want to cause offence over it.

No offence taken, part of deciding on what hives you want to treat, is also deciding if its worth treating, thats all.

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A yr ago I put OA strips in my three hives.

One hive was weak and I moved at into the hakea and it built up well.

Two stayed at home .

In spring I removed the strips and did not add more .

One of the home hive requeened itself from a cell I left in in spring and is doing really well.

An examination of brood in early fed showed no varroa in drone brood .

Another hive requeened itself in early summer is doing fine.

Feb examination showed a few varroa in drone brood.

Hive three brought home from the hakea superseded in mid spring.

I was never happy about the new queen and the hive seemed to be going backwards .

Feb exam showed lots of varroa in the drone brood.

Cause I still had honey to take off I started using the vapouriser.

At the start twice a week then once a week till about a week ago when I put in more strips .

The weak hive was robbed out and died.

I am wondering if genetics is starting to make a difference in hive survival from varroa .

 

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