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Oxalic and glycerine


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No.

 

Maggie the prospect that somebody might patent cardboard has been weighing on my mind for a while, and should be a concern to all of us, as it would be a cost to all of us, and prevent innovation, just so one person can make money from the rest of us.

 

I would not like to see it happen and nor should any of us.

 

If you need to constantly take little snipes at me, do it about something else, but not that. If you understand what is good for the community.

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Hi All, I don't have time to follow every chat group, but I got a notification about this one.  I'm interested in your experiences with OA/gly in NZ, so please feel free to contact me directly at

You are obviously still young . I try and leave the bathroom before the steam has cleared .

This is an issue that comes up often There tends to be two ways that Beeks place Staples and one way results in less Brood damage. Some Beeks remove an edge frame, spread the remaining frames o

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2 hours ago, Alastair said:

I have read up on the South American OA strips and never seen mention of sewing, although it could be they just didn't mention it. However here is a picture of them in use, and best can be seen from the pic, there is no sewing.

I have never understood why the way it is done in NZ has been so complex, sewing multiple layers together instead of using one thick one, etc.

I can see the point of one bead of thread to prevent collapse, but beyond that, all this multiple beads, overlocking, and whatever, is a load of hoopla.

And of course, the patent on all this sewing aint worth spit, cos it can all be done simpler, and cheaper. 😏

sounds like good news all round then - a novel idea of edge protecting multi-layer strips as a delivery mechanism is patented and people can choose to buy them from the developer or not.

 

And an alternative with cardboard/similar and a single stitch up the middle to stop the strip collapsing if the bees chew out the top part. Just need to make sure that isn't patented, or if it is that it's by someone who is happy for people to use it themselves - wonder if apinz should get a patent on it and pre-advise that they will let it be open access etc?

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19 hours ago, Sailabee said:

Dust usually packs around the bobin holder and affects the running of the machine, so need to clear out quite often and oil or spray with silicone spray to lubricate.

When we grew potatoes we used a bag sewing machine to close the paper bags.  The 20 kg bags were 2 ply so the machine was sewing through 4 layers.  There was dust from the paper, dirt off the potatoes and there was a lot of fluff that came off the thread too.  We kept the machine well oiled and ti worked trouble free . 

 

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1 hour ago, Alastair said:

the prospect that somebody might patent cardboard has been weighing on my mind for a while, and should be a concern to all of us, as it would be a cost to all of us, and prevent innovation, just so one person can make money from the rest of us.

 

based on what the internet tells me below, there is no risk of a cardboard patent, you can unweigh your mind. It has been around too long and is in the public domain.

 

Here is a slightly USA view of what can be patented... https://www.legalzoom.com/knowledge/patent/topic/what-is-patentable

In general, you must satisfy the following four requirements to qualify for a patent:

  • The subject matter must be patentable.
  • The invention must be novel.
  • The invention must have some utility or usefulness.
  • The invention must not be obvious.

Patentable subject matter

A patent cannot protect an idea. Instead, the idea must be embodied in one or more of the following:

  • A process or method (such as a new way to manufacture concrete)
  • A machine (something with moving parts or circuitry)
  • A manufactured article (such as a tool or another object that accomplishes a result with few or no moving parts, such as a pencil)
  • A new composition (such as a new pharmaceutical)
  • An asexually reproduced and new variety of plant.

Even if the invention falls into one of the four above categories, there are certain subject matters that cannot be patented. These include mathematical formulas, naturally-occurring substances, laws of nature and processes done entirely with the human body (such as a technique for shooting a free throw in basketball).

Novelty Requirement

Novelty simply means the invention must be new. That is, it must differ from knowledge already existing in the public domain, prior patents, published applications, publications available to the public and items on sale (all together referred to as "prior art"). Patent law defines prior art in several ways, including:

Anything disclosed as described above:

  • by someone other than you (or a joint inventor, or someone who receives the information disclosed from you or from a joint inventor, at any time prior to your filing date, or
  • by you, one year or more before you file your patent application.

One must proceed with caution: the one-year rule applies to everyone, including the original inventor. For example, if you publish your invention in a magazine or begin selling it, you must file a patent application within one year from the date it was published or first sold. Otherwise, no one (not even the inventor) will be able to obtain a patent for the invention. On the other hand, if you disclose the invention and someone else tries to patent it within one year of your disclosure, your disclosure will stop that applicant from receiving a patent, since your disclosure acts as prior art.

 

Utility Requirement

Utility means an invention must physically accomplish something. If an invention works, or if it produces a result, then it has utility. In practice, very few inventions fail the utility test. Only when the underlying logic is seriously flawed (for example, a perpetual motion machine), could a patent be challenged on utility. In addition, illegal or highly dangerous products may also be rejected by the USPTO under this requirement.

Design patents do not need to satisfy the utility requirement.

Non-Obviousness Requirement

Non-obviousness means that people skilled in the invention's field (as opposed to the average person) would not consider the invention obvious. For example, an invention made by substituting one color for another or by combining two existing inventions in a logical manner, would typically not be patentable. Put another way, some inventive step is required beyond prior art and existing common knowledge in the field.

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On 21/02/2020 at 8:48 AM, nikki watts said:

We used staples from Phil that were purchased already in the solution. We had the dwindling issues. Not all hives though.  Affected hives had the Queens cowering in far corners of the hive away from stores and slow spring build. 
From @Alistair’s post it is possible we over heated the staples by leaving them on the back of the truck in the pails in the sun for too long. 
I certainly noticed a Formic acid smell. especially in spring which i put down to damp hive conditions. The gly sucking in the Condensation which reacted with the oxalic to make formic. 
 

Yes we had the same problem lots of spring dwindling after strips put in but after a few weeks they did well.  Big die-off.  my main staff member has bad reactions of OA and ends up with days off. So I have gone back to old ways for the autumn but will still do some with staples.  Am also wondering OA about getting too hot in or on the vehicle.  Very interesting thoughts in light of what was posted earlier about the changes with heating

 

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7 minutes ago, Hector Wong said:

When we grew potatoes we used a bag sewing machine to close the paper bags.  The 20 kg bags were 2 ply

That sounds like incredibly heavy work Hector.

 

A long time ago my granddaddy was a potato grower, and in those days we had to hand sow the tops of the sacks. He used to fill a whole railway wagon, which would arrive at Studholme Junction Station, South Canterbury, and he would load it, and then the train it was scheduled for would come along and pick it up.  

 

 

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11 minutes ago, Maggie James said:

That sounds like incredibly heavy work Hector.

 

A long time ago my granddaddy was a potato grower, and in those days we had to hand sow the tops of the sacks. He used to fill a whole railway wagon, which would arrive at Studholme Junction Station, South Canterbury, and he would load it, and then the train it was scheduled for would come along and pick it up.  

 

 

I remember those sack days too, they were 70 kg and took 2 people to load onto the trailer .  We then move to packing for the supermarkets so went down to 10 kg and eventually to 5 kg bags and they were stacked on a pallet and loaded on to truck with a forklift.  How thinks have changed just like in beekeeping, using helicopters to fly hives to sites. 

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30 minutes ago, ChrisM said:

you can unweigh your mind. 

 

LOL, you have a way with words Chris. 🙂

 

And thanks for that info, i don't understand all the legal intracacies myself, it's a good thing people cannot just patent stuff willy nilly.

 

Just hope at the end of the day, the use of cardboard as a medium for OA strips cannot be patented.

 

Are you a lawyer by some chance?

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22 minutes ago, Alastair said:

Are you a lawyer 

 

Eeek, Lawyer? How could you!! I just quoted off that internet link.

I'm a mechanical engineer specialising in a narrow field, design of yacht masts and rigging; that has put food on the table for 35 years.

However, we do lease beehives for 12 month periods in our local area, so our beekeeping hobby is at the upper end of the 'hobby' spectrum.

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2 minutes ago, ChrisM said:

I'm a mechanical engineer specialising in a narrow field, design of yacht masts and rigging

Over the years, I have noticed certain occupations are attracted to beekeeping, whether that be as commercial or hobbyist, and engineers are one of them.  I think it is because this occupation is very analytical with mathematical skills.  

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13 minutes ago, ChrisM said:

Eeek, Lawyer? How could you!!

 

LOL. 😄

 

It would actually be a good thing to have a lawyer in our "NZBees group", to assist with this type of thing.  Unfortunately we do not, that I know of.

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11 minutes ago, Dennis Crowley said:

Yeah but we all are "bush lawyers"

A horrible thorny climbing plant that snags clothing and skin.

 

Does sound like some humans.  

 

 

 

Crikey, I'm getting lots of cups of coffee from someone.

 

Not only do some read far too much into comments, they interpret them totally incorrectly

Edited by Maggie James
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13 minutes ago, Hector Wong said:

Team NZ or Oracle?

Well, this is off the thread, but neither of those existed 35 years ago, I started with BNZ Challenge and Michael Fay in Fremantle. More recently working with Artemis and SailGP.  In between others was 15 great years for Sir Peter Blake and Team NZ. I did do some small jobs for Oracle, but nothing substantial. It has to be said that year in and year out, it was the super yachts that provide continuity while Cup campaigns, started, stopped bickered and stalled in stop-go fashion. 

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Suddenly the penny is starting to drop .... reading through  posts of overheating the O/A mix ....  

I wonder if that was the issue we had last autumn with the staples ..... some yards worked some didn't ..... three people making mixes , different quality control .... what seemed like a real simple recipe is actually quite detailed in it's concoction and the success is in the attention to detail.

 

It would be interesting to do a wider spread efficacy trial with a standard soaked staple .....

I could never understand why Stoney was having so much success and we were in the depths of desperation. The answer was possibly that  he got his pre soaked from Taupo. 

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Failed is a bit strong. They did kill mites. Just, they also killed a good deal of the bees.

 

However before judging a product, it's probably only fair to use, and have it made, according to manufacturers directions. If yours didn't even kill the mites, that would point to not enough OA in the strips, which might indicate OA being destroyed during the mixing.

 

But emphasis might. End of day we don't really know.

 

I've been thinking, if i come up with a strip that works well and does not hurt the bees, I'll send you some to try, as you are another guy who has had problems. To prove they are good they need to be shown to work in circumstances where others have not worked.

Edited by Alastair
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1 hour ago, jamesc said:

 

I could never understand why Stoney was having so much success and we were in the depths of desperation. The answer was possibly that  he got his pre soaked from Taupo. 

And likewise i was scratching my head as to why they wouldn’t work for you.. 

shouting out how much I loved them only bought me trouble really.. 

i really hope you can use them to good effect up there in the beech gully.. 

the cost factor with synthetic alternatives is somewhere I dont want to be right now. 

 

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On 21/02/2020 at 8:03 PM, Alastair said:

Wow, you have yourself one of the Rolls Royces of sewing machines there Nikki!

 

I didn't understand this talk of dust. I've put a decent amount of cardboard through and don't see any dust. 

 

I have just been informed by a good friend, that men do not see dust.

 

So, no problem. 😄

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I have advertisements for sewing machines and sewing related equipment flicking up all over my interweb. There are two possible explanations that come to mind.

 

1. Pure coincidence, 2. Google read my stuff.

 

🙄

Edited by Alastair
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