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Oxalic and glycerine

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22 minutes ago, Bighands said:

So I hope they are declaring it on the harvest declaration when selling their honey

No idea .

I probably got some of that honey given to me by them .

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30 minutes ago, kaihoka said:

I do not think they were on the verge of collapse they just had a varroa loading that they thought they should re treat .

 



I was meaning the reinvasion must be coming from other beekeepers whose hives were on the verge of collapse which is what causes reinvasion.

But I get where you are coming from.

 

i think beekeepers just assume reinvasion is the cause of their high mite levels without actually doing any kind of real investigation into it. 

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3 minutes ago, frazzledfozzle said:



I was meaning the reinvasion must be coming from other beekeepers whose hives were on the verge of collapse which is what causes reinvasion.

But I get where you are coming from.

 

i think beekeepers just assume reinvasion is the cause of their high mite levels without actually doing any kind of real investigation into it. 

I have come to the conclusion after a few yrs on the forum reading posts that overstocking is the root cause of many  many problems .

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I certainly hope you were talking through a hole in your head Fraz,

 

Now with reinvasion , it does not always come from collapsing hives , these mites are pretty smart critters and when mite numbers are at there peak in late summer and the amount of brood in the hive is starting shrink these smart critters start to change tactics, instead of  jumping on nurse bees they hitch a ride on foragers and get transported out into the big wide world where our hives just happen to bee. So it stands to reason that the stronger your hives are, the more brood they have, the more mites they will have in the Autumn that are going to be looking for a new home hence in the good brood years reinvasion will be much more of a problem.

 

 

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My hives started to build up. Still lot of equalization to do.

The most common thing I noticed in every hive in the apiary(weaker and stronger too) is the compact brood. Very beautiful brood. This tells me that over the last few years the spring uncompact brood was a result of the varroa's viruses. I always used bayvarol for autumn and apivar for spring treatment(from 2019 autumn I use only staples - autumn batch was in all winter).

A small flow is already there and they filled up the brood nest with fresh pollen too.

While the weaker hives still have staples in there, the stronger ones destroyed them almost 100%.

Splitting, second brood box, stealing capped brood was a must do management.

Also I added new staples. Just finished a small but new batch(still three layers of plastering paper but this time I used a twin needle to make a double straight line sawing close to each edge of the staples).

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Hi Team been a while..so I have my hives on maintenance mode.  Leaving all the honey on, most roll as triples.  I was late treating in June and have only just treated again now in November.  Do not autumn or spring feeding sugar.  

 

I used Philbee staples the narrow ones and put in 4 per box.  I find they work sweet as. Hives are pumping.  I have only used ox for the last 2 year nothing else.   That's my update. I like them. Most of the June staples are still intact in the hive when I replace them.  I could make them myself however I like Philbees service and it hastle free. I drain the bottom 3 layers for about 3 days over an old exclude so they are dryer putting them in. 

 

Thanks philbee for all your work here. 

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I have moved all the Queen Marking posts to a new thread.

Thanks for your understanding.

 

 

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I been having a think about the staples tonight.

 

Many have commented that their incidence of supercedure has been higher using O/A.  I tend to agree. Which got me thinking as to the wisdom  of putting an O/A treatment into the hives as we super things up. 

We intend to do some washing in Alcohol to get an idea of the state of the nation , and make a decision after that.

The spring treatments should have wiped 99% of the mites, so they should be sweet for eight weeks .... right ?

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On 7/11/2019 at 5:51 PM, Philbee said:

Also Alastair 

You need to get your Bees tested.

 

OK done.

 

What I'll say first is I am amazed at how fast the DNature lab is. I put the samples in the mail to them on monday, by wednesday I have an email with the results!!

 

Anyhow here are the results. Sample one is from some of the worst affected hives, and sample 2 is from some of the least affected hives. What say you Phil?

 

 

test results.JPG

19 hours ago, jamesc said:

I been having a think about the staples tonight.

 

Many have commented that their incidence of supercedure has been higher using O/A.  I tend to agree. Which got me thinking as to the wisdom  of putting an O/A treatment into the hives as we super things up. 

We intend to do some washing in Alcohol to get an idea of the state of the nation , and make a decision after that.

The spring treatments should have wiped 99% of the mites, so they should be sweet for eight weeks .... right ?

 

For me James the supersedure was a good thing. No interuption to laying the old queen was still present when the new queen had started laying. I get a new queen out of it.

 

As to putting in staples when supering, if mite count is high, then maybe. But if the mite count is near zero, why? My feeling is there might be more risk, than any possible benefits.

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@Alastair, interesting results . Thanks for testing your bees and sharing the results . 
 

They kind of tell me that you have high virus loading both from the nasties that cause Cororapa, plus Lotmaria Passim thrown in for fun , just in case the other two didn’t hit them properly . 
 

What the results don’t tell us is what actually is normal in your area and how much virus, and what combination , the bees can tolerate before it affects them . 
 

It also doesn’t tell us if the OA made them worse , better or did nothing . 
 

All answers that can be worked in now you have a base line 

Edited by M4tt

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Good analysis Matt, and good questions you raise.

 

To know, we would need much more data from other hives. 

 

For some years now I have been pretty certain there are a lot more pathogens in the bees than there were years ago. Even though no laboratory evidence, you can see it in the bees. I get to see a lot of other beekeepers hives also, same thing.

 

All the same, my honey harvest last season was well above the national average, and the bees came through winter looking good, and strong, too strong. At the time.

 

Anyhow Phil has been doing his own testing so will see what light he can shed on it, and any comment from JohnF may be useful also.

 

Plus anyone else of course! 😉

Edited by Alastair
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25 minutes ago, Alastair said:

Good analysis Matt, and good questions you raise.

 

To know, we would need much more data from other hives. 

 

For some years now I have been pretty certain there are a lot more pathogens in the bees than there were years ago. Even though no laboratory evidence, you can see it in the bees. I get to see a lot of other beekeepers hives also, same thing.

 

All the same, my honey harvest last season was well above the national average, and the bees came through winter looking good, and strong, too strong. At the time.

 

Anyhow Phil has been doing his own testing so will see what light he can shed on it, and any comment from JohnF may be useful also.

 

Plus anyone else of course! 😉

 

There is a NZ study here:

https://researcharchive.vuw.ac.nz/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10063/7058/thesis_access.pdf?sequence=1

p37:  What is demonstrated in New Zealand colonies is a high detection rate of L. passim which once in the hive remains at high levels throughout the year. In this study several of the colonies were highly infected with L. passim at the end of this study these colonies are reported as continuing to be strong and successful.

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Thanks Craig. You are a mine of information with the various links you post.

 

Wish i had the same aptitude for reading widely. 🙂

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1 hour ago, M4tt said:

They kind of tell me that you have high virus loading both from the nasties that cause Cororapa, plus Lotmaria Passim thrown in for fun , just in case the other two didn’t hit them properly . 

Nosema is not a virus😶

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3 minutes ago, Otto said:

Nosema is not a virus😶

Oh . Really ? Oops 🤣
 

It’s a fungus . I never knew that 

Edited by M4tt

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And since we are asking dum questions, I have heard of cororapa, but what is it, how is it caused by the above mentioned organisms? I thought it was an organism in itself?

Edited by Alastair

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2 hours ago, Alastair said:

And since we are asking dum questions, I have heard of cororapa, but what is it, how is it caused by the above mentioned organisms? I thought it was an organism in itself?


 

That link above has John talking about the Cororapa syndrome.

sounds very  familiar to your situation Alastair.

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Thanks Dan, not sure that link worked quite right, but i'm guessing cororapa is a combination of the 2 nosemas?

Edited by Alastair

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Thanks for sharing Alistair.. very interesting. 

There have been some theories by ox gl users that we lose the sick bees pretty quickly following the treatment then following that they bounce back better than ever. 

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Yes I have read those theories.

 

Curious thing though, prior to treatment, sick as they may have been, the hives looked pretty awesome and I was expecting a boomer season. Still expecting a boomer crop from the non oxalick'ed hives.

.

Should add to that I'm keen to hear any theories, all theories welcome, if that is all we have at this stage.

 

Just, as to accepting what is fact, Phil has rigorous standards. As per his quote - "Your genuine concerns must be backed up by credible, well designed and well executed trials, not preconceived prejudices".

.

I have not yet Phils criterion being met as regards the oxalic only kills bees if they are sick theory.

Edited by Alastair

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20 hours ago, Alastair said:

 

OK done.

 

What I'll say first is I am amazed at how fast the DNature lab is. I put the samples in the mail to them on monday, by wednesday I have an email with the results!!

 

Anyhow here are the results. Sample one is from some of the worst affected hives, and sample 2 is from some of the least affected hives. What say you Phil?

 

 

test results.JPG

 

 

 

Thanks Alastair - credit to Rebecca (not me!) and her handling of your samples

 

17 hours ago, M4tt said:

Oh . Really ? Oops 🤣
 

It’s a fungus . I never knew that 

 

Yes, nosemas are fungal-like . . microsporidians, if you want to be more precise. Lotmaria passim is a trypanosome

 

16 hours ago, Alastair said:

And since we are asking dum questions, I have heard of cororapa, but what is it, how is it caused by the above mentioned organisms? I thought it was an organism in itself?

 

Cororapa is the name we gave to the syndrome. Rather than hammering Coromandel (where it was first described), we dubbed it COROmandel/WairaRAPA. . . yes, see what we did there? Since found in Taranaki, East Coast (including a couple of my own hives a couple of seasons ago) and other areas.

 

14 hours ago, Alastair said:

Thanks Dan, not sure that link worked quite right, but i'm guessing cororapa is a combination of the 2 nosemas?

 

Plant and Food studied Nosema ceranae but I believe it to be the combination of both nosema species . . .which has been described as being doubly bad (or more correctly, life span clearly shortened with both vs 1 . . .vs neither)

 

19 hours ago, CraBee said:

 

There is a NZ study here:

https://researcharchive.vuw.ac.nz/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10063/7058/thesis_access.pdf?sequence=1

p37:  What is demonstrated in New Zealand colonies is a high detection rate of L. passim which once in the hive remains at high levels throughout the year. In this study several of the colonies were highly infected with L. passim at the end of this study these colonies are reported as continuing to be strong and successful.

 

This study was done by @TammyW in our lab a couple of years ago Craig - we miss her but she's doing cool things at Scion in Rotorua after completing her Masters. Thanks to the beekeepers on this forum who supported that work !

 

One thing is that the levels cannot be absolute. Hives with high nosema levels in spring can go on and survive if caught in time. But when we have tested bees individually from a dwindled hive then we've seen very high levels as well.

Testing of bees will also show whether considering comb sterilisation is worthwhile (50 deg for 2 hours)

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14 hours ago, Alastair said:

non oxalick'ed hives

 

just asking, did any of the non-OAG hives get tested? Presumably they would also have similar virus levels? I mean fungus :) 

 

So, OAG + fungus^2 = mortality, but bayvarol + fungus = not so bad. Is that a conclusion?

 

I have refreshed some combs using glacial acetic acid as per the UK book I quoted once in the past. I wonder if this has any bearing on virus/fungus; if I had them. Kind of sterlising comb for amateurs that don't have hot rooms. Still plenty of others with good and bad results that didn't do any kind of comb refresh. 

Real life is so confusing..

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That's a good point Chris I did not have any non OA'd hives tested. Perhaps just for interest sake I will, won't be working any of my hives for another week or so though.

 

But yes, "So, OAG + fungus^2 = mortality, but bayvarol + fungus = not so bad. Is that a conclusion?", yes that would be my conclusion. I am pretty sure these infections will be endemic through my whole operation.

 

Maybe a couple of weeks ago, a good friend was encouraging me to treat for these. However my personal stance is no. These infections are here in NZ to stay. Better to just keep breeding from the best performers. Ultimately that will lead to a bee that does well, infections or not.

 

25 minutes ago, JohnF said:

Cororapa is the name we gave to the syndrome. Rather than hammering Coromandel (where it was first described), we dubbed it COROmandel/WairaRAPA. . . yes, see what we did there? Since found in Taranaki, East Coast (including a couple of my own hives a couple of seasons ago) and other areas.

 

Thanks John that's handy to know, and so awesome to have a scientist on the forum. 👍

 

A question. It seems you grade infection levels through very low - moderate - very high, plus some in between. How are these gradings arrived at. Would Moderate be average? And are the gradings arrived at by comparing against NZ averages, or against what would noticeably, or not noticeably, affect a hive?

 

Re the advice to heat treat gear, thanks, and I am sure it would work. However I just don't have the technology to attempt it with the number of boxes I have. I would also assume that the most important combs to treat would be the brood combs, just achieving that would be a mission in itself. I am considering chucking some of the older brood combs though.

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My guess is that we will reduce our NZ Hive numbers by 40-50% over the next 3 years.


We now know that our nations Hives are laden with nasties.

So what to do?

What we need to know is our options.

What is it going to take to rid our Hives of these pathogens? 

Can we rid them of them? 

Are the pathogens in both the Bees and the gear? 

 

Will these pathogens become less of a threat as the Hive numbers decrease, therefore enabling the problem to solve itself?

To what extent could these Pathogens be decreasing the productivity of the Bees?

If the Pathogens were controlled or removed, could our Hive stocking rate potential increase in the future if need be?

etc, etc

 

Consider for a moment the effects on Livestock stocking rates (Sheep &Cattle) that modern drenches have.
Take that technology away and the stocking rates would plummet.

Like it or not, for better or for worse, medicinal technology in parallel with advanced pasture management underpins our primary Meat and Dairy sector.

 

My opinion is that no amount of breeding will prepare the Bees for the future.

Two of the many reasons for this are,

You cant viably breed for High production and disease resistance at the same time. 

The environment is changing  more quickly than most species can adapt.

 

So my question to the Scientists is, 

What can we do? in theory at least, because if there was ever a second chance to do something, it is now.

 


 

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6 minutes ago, Philbee said:

You cant viably breed for High production and disease resistance at the same time. 

 

I would have said the 2 are linked. Get one, you'll likely get the other.

 

Phil the tests i did were because you insisted. So i spent the money, had them done. I was expecting you must have some purpose in that. What was it?

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