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Oxalic and glycerine

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2 minutes ago, jamesc said:

Good question

we make them up a couple of days before they are needed, soaked overnight.

we cut holes in the bottom of two orange pails which are used as a sieve

staples tipped into those and drsined for a day into another bucket

works best in a warm room

and then hey presto.... two buckets of greasy staples ready for use

we gonna start putting staples back in bees as we pull synthetics out.... summer cover!

 

so there is no real control of (say) average 20g per staple? It comes down to surface area, surface tension and how they are packed. I think two days is not long enough for properly soaking in and this could be part of the issue too. What about putting in a measured amount of solution, leave it for a week and then turn it upside down for a week. Would that be a big problem? Just thinking aloud.... I think you want to avoid (say) 40g wet ones going into a hive that arent soaked through it could become bordering a flash treatment.

 

My solution goes in to dry strips hot as soon as crystals are dissolved, and then I leave outside in the sun while soaking. I don't have warm room..

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Uh  huh.... i have been thinking along those lines

maybe soakinmg time is too short... but they are very absorbant, thats for sure.

And stoney of corse bought his strips ready made.

bit like homebrew plonc... some is very rough

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Ok so two things have come to light .

 

1.  WET staples are BAD

 

DRY staples are GOOD.

CHRYSTALLISED  appear ok at this stage, so long as they are dry .  
 

2. @ChrisM, I believe your mixing is bang on . Measure accurately exactly the correct ingredients for each Bach . That could also lead to a trace back if records were kept and a Bach failed , or worked better . 

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On 7/11/2019 at 7:02 AM, frazzledfozzle said:

@Don Machave you heard of similar experiences out of the South Island ?

@jamesc have you had any results back yet ?

@frazzledfozzle I learnt about the prevalence of nosema ceranae in lab tests from a North Island based pcr laboratory that receives many samples from beekeepers.

I cannot state if it has been an identified this season in the south island or if they have tested any south island samples.

Labs keep the data- results and beekeeper names - confidential. But in discussion they do tell us what they are seeing in the big picture.

 

I keep dreaming of the day when we could gather that data from all sharing & cooperating beekeepers and publish it in real time so beekeepers can see regional trends.

It is but a dream and unlikely to happen in what is left of my lifetime. There is heaps of data out there, we just need a way to access it and use it to help all beekeepers.

But some will free load such as system and it will probably crash through lack of support.

 

Beekeepers must be aware that there are a lot diagnostic tools readily available to identify what is happening to their bees.

I ask this question as a challenge. Without using these tools are they weak in their hive management techniques?

 

Peter Drucker said, “You can't manage what you don't  measure.”    Peter Drucker was a Management guru who wrote the book In Search of Excellence published in 1982.

 

Disclosure; I do not work for any laboratory business.

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30 minutes ago, Don Mac said:

@frazzledfozzle I learnt about the prevalence of nosema ceranae in lab tests from a North Island based pcr laboratory that receives many samples from beekeepers.

I cannot state if it has been an identified this season in the south island or if they have tested any south island samples.

Labs keep the data- results and beekeeper names - confidential. But in discussion they do tell us what they are seeing in the big picture.

 

I keep dreaming of the day when we could gather that data from all sharing & cooperating beekeepers and publish it in real time so beekeepers can see regional trends.

It is but a dream and unlikely to happen in what is left of my lifetime. There is heaps of data out there, we just need a way to access it and use it to help all beekeepers.

But some will free load such as system and it will probably crash through lack of support.

 

Beekeepers must be aware that there are a lot diagnostic tools readily available to identify what is happening to their bees.

I ask this question as a challenge. Without using these tools are they weak in their hive management techniques?

 

Peter Drucker said, “You can't manage what you don't  measure.”    Peter Drucker was a Management guru who wrote the book In Search of Excellence published in 1982.

 

Disclosure; I do not work for any laboratory business.

 

Analytica, for example, takes all the manuka honey testing it does to create broad information on MGO/DHA/MPI attributes.  The pcr lab could do the same with the ceanae samples and retain confidentiality.

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1 hour ago, Don Mac said:

@frazzledfozzle I learnt about the prevalence of nosema ceranae in lab tests from a North Island based pcr laboratory that receives many samples from beekeepers.

I cannot state if it has been an identified this season in the south island or if they have tested any south island samples.

Labs keep the data- results and beekeeper names - confidential. But in discussion they do tell us what they are seeing in the big picture.

 

I keep dreaming of the day when we could gather that data from all sharing & cooperating beekeepers and publish it in real time so beekeepers can see regional trends.

It is but a dream and unlikely to happen in what is left of my lifetime. There is heaps of data out there, we just need a way to access it and use it to help all beekeepers.

But some will free load such as system and it will probably crash through lack of support.

 

Beekeepers must be aware that there are a lot diagnostic tools readily available to identify what is happening to their bees.

I ask this question as a challenge. Without using these tools are they weak in their hive management techniques?

 

Peter Drucker said, “You can't manage what you don't  measure.”    Peter Drucker was a Management guru who wrote the book In Search of Excellence published in 1982.

 

Disclosure; I do not work for any laboratory business.

 

BoP Beekeeper Group has map of Tutin Tests for the area which is online and free. The same map also has contact details of those on the swarm collector list. If beekeepers were testing the Nosema's we could easily add those to the map on a further layer. At the moment the map has red dots for failed Tut, green dots for OK tut. blue dots for swarm collectors. The map can be taken full screen and layers that are not of interest can be turned off. We did debate having an AFB layer, but decided against it for various reasons. But an NC and NA layer is easy to add if enough people actually had this test done. I just don't know if anybody is actually testing (?).

not sure if link will work or is allowed.

 

 https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/0/viewer?mid=1mImGszBbC04m7N3ZC5Z_6BYUp8uFcd4o&ll=-37.95947387707404%2C176.28498581049803&z=8

 

https://bopbee.weebly.com/tutin.html

 

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On 8/11/2019 at 8:01 AM, Gino de Graaf said:

I don't sense too much hostility, more frustration at not being heard. I also shared my Tape outcome, and no one could give me a answer. There are others, who either don't share or are not here on forum. We hear the success but fail to see hives thrive when using it. Do we suck at our jobs? Our bees are sicker? Our conditions don't suit? 

well i was beginning to think i suck at beekeeping after loosing so many hives, things are looking better, i did think it was the oxy strips not strong enough, have put another round in as i think we still need to learn more about using them, so far all building up great, a little slow in some places, but thats to do with where they are, the hives that dropped out tended to be the older hives the newer splits bolted though, so not really sure what to think, i'am just glade theres a heap of honey still in the shed,

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I do not make my own staples .

They come from someone who knows what they are doing .

I have read every post on this thread and decided it was an art and a science I was not confident I would get right .

And I think , after reading peoples experiences,  I was correct .

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8 hours ago, jamesc said:

Thanks for the results john

came through last night

but it was friday, right

they are definitely worth sharing here

i’ll leave that you!

 

*coughing again* The original results were for our Nosema duo (both nosema species) and we include Lotmaria in that as well. The results went to James just over a couple of weeks ago and 2 days after we received them. Just in case anyone was wondering :10_wink:

 

The samples tested had very high levels of Nosema apis - but no Nosema ceranae.

 

We kept the extracted material and tested them this week out of interest, to see if any viral culprits at work. We only test 3 of the samples but one of them did have very high levels of Deformed Wing Virus - possibly a colony moving away from the staples??  I have no idea there

 

7 hours ago, jamesc said:

John .... we really appreciate the fact that you did the testing for 'Mates Rates' .

I wonder what the real cost is for running what you did ?

 

The 3 targets are $85 ex GST per sample. Testing for 5 viruses and nosemas/trypanosomes is about twice that  (at a single sample rate)

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32 minutes ago, JohnF said:

 

*coughing again* The original results were for our Nosema duo (both nosema species) and we include Lotmaria in that as well. The results went to James just over a couple of weeks ago and 2 days after we received them. Just in case anyone was wondering :10_wink:

 

The samples tested had very high levels of Nosema apis - but no Nosema ceranae.

 

We kept the extracted material and tested them this week out of interest, to see if any viral culprits at work. We only test 3 of the samples but one of them did have very high levels of Deformed Wing Virus - possibly a colony moving away from the staples??  I have no idea there

 

 

The 3 targets are $85 ex GST per sample. Testing for 5 viruses and nosemas/trypanosomes is about twice that  (at a single sample rate)

 

In the samples that you receive from various bk's, how often would you see nosema apis?

2 minutes ago, frazzledfozzle said:

@JohnF would those results tell us that James hive losses were not due to cororapa so still a bit of a mystery 

 

Why not just nosema apis?

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Back in 2016 when @TammyWwaa doing her thesis , our test hive results was as below 

 

E0DCAC03-5620-4ADE-8022-F443BE62FB58.jpeg

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1 hour ago, JohnF said:

 

The samples tested had very high levels of Nosema apis - but no Nosema ceranae

Can I infer that a high load of Nosema api could have  contributed towards @jamesc colony losses? The acidic treatment Nosema combo?

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Nosema apis is commonly present in NZ hives and is not normally a problem. And although capable of killing a hive in extreme circumstances, in places like Canada where bees are confined for 3 months in winter, in NZ, the bees normally leave the hive, take a dump, problem solved.

 

On it's own, Nosema apis is not going to kill 1/2 the hives in an outfit.

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32 minutes ago, Alastair said:

Nosema apis is commonly present in NZ hives and is not normally a problem. And although capable of killing a hive in extreme circumstances, in places like Canada where bees are confined for 3 months in winter, in NZ, the bees normally leave the hive, take a dump, problem solved.

 

On it's own, Nosema apis is not going to kill 1/2 the hives in an outfit.

Cheers for info.

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5 hours ago, frazzledfozzle said:

@JohnF would those results tell us that James hive losses were not due to cororapa so still a bit of a mystery 

I'd say the hives died from the mite .

The question is ..... why did the O/A not work ?

 

Maybe JimmyC suffered a case of the PPBK ....?

Maybe not enough staples went in for the mite loading ......

Maybe chemical residue fixed 'em .....

Maybe they got reinvaded from neighbouring hives that were'nt treated ...... 

 

Maybe we just get over it ...... queens are getting mated and nucs going into duds.

The world  keeps rolling and I found a buyer for this years honey.

 

The big question is .... what are we gonna do in January ?

Edited by jamesc
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33 minutes ago, jamesc said:

The big question is .... what are we gonna do in January ?

Pay attention to the saturation level of your strips for a start ?

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41 minutes ago, jamesc said:

The world  keeps rolling and I found a buyer for this years honey.

Great news for you!!!!

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52 minutes ago, jamesc said:

The world  keeps rolling and I found a buyer for this years honey.

I have a friend whose started selling a lot of rata into china .

It has a very slight bit of clover in it , just enough to make it spread .

I always thought the taste would appeal to the chinese .

When I worked in apple packing sheds I learned what the south east asian palate was and it does not surprise me that they would go for rata .

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1 hour ago, jamesc said:

 

 

The big question is .... what are we gonna do in January ?

Grow a pumpkin?

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5 hours ago, Alastair said:

Nosema apis is commonly present in NZ hives and is not normally a problem. And although capable of killing a hive in extreme circumstances, in places like Canada where bees are confined for 3 months in winter, in NZ, the bees normally leave the hive, take a dump, problem solved.

 

On it's own, Nosema apis is not going to kill 1/2 the hives in an outfit.

These days nosema apis is  not on its own. Even if beekeepers are able to get on top of their mites a number of viruses persist for much much longer and when present along with nosema can create some very deadly combos.

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Before OA were there unexpected colony losses? Were there treatment failures for unknown reasons? Were there seasonal variations in buildup, harvest volumes & colony strength despite consistent treatments?

 

I thought this post from The Apiarist was timely. 
 

https://theapiarist.org/strong-hives-live-hives/

 

@jamesc & the rest of us can’t hope to have our questions answered while no evidence (as apposed abundant opinion) on offer. 
 

Without a sufficiently powered controlled randomised, and hopefully observer blinded, study there will always be room for opinion, conjecture & doubt. 
 

Having said that, as a hobbyist with little to loose, I’m happy to continue with OA

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22 hours ago, Josh said:

Without a sufficiently powered controlled randomised, and hopefully observer blinded, study there will always be room for opinion, conjecture & doubt. 


Pretty hard to do it blinded - the strips are obvious and even once removed the OA strips leave signs for a while.

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1 hour ago, cBank said:


Pretty hard to do it blinded - the strips are obvious and even once removed the OA strips leave signs for a while.

Just a point on Bee trials, 
Its likely in my view that the super organism extends beyond the Hive to include the Apiary and possibly beyond that to include regions.
I suspect that this specific topic overlaps various discussions on Local adaption.
 

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On ‎9‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 3:51 PM, frazzledfozzle said:

@JohnF would those results tell us that James hive losses were not due to cororapa so still a bit of a mystery 

 

No, not due to the typical signature of cororapa

 

On ‎9‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 3:53 PM, CraBee said:

 

In the samples that you receive from various bk's, how often would you see nosema apis?

 

 

We do see quite a bit of nosema apis - a drain on the hives (Mark Goodwin estimated it accounted for 15% of a potential crop). But the levels in these samples were very high - much higher than we normally see. I wonder if staples were dry enough and the glycerine is attracting water, does the dampness encourage the nosema apis?

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