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Oxalic and glycerine

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4 minutes ago, Stoney said:

Correct, I’ve not seen a patchy brood pattern caused by staples... patchy brood patterns in my hives are IMO caused by other issues. Queens, virus (old comb) nutrition, 

If youre ever south of the border Alistair  I’d welcome a visit from you and happily spend a day swinging the hive tools around some of my sites. 

Ive got nothing to hide and have been open and honest with my experiment. 

 

I'll be heading south Christmas, happy to meet up I would not expect to waste a whole day of yours but would certainly appreciate a chat and maybe open a few hives, but appreciate you will be a busy man.

 

Right now all i know is you are Stoney on NZBees. Beyond that I don't know who you are or where you are. How about shoot me a text with your contact details to 027 4725 914

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*sigh* must be getting past bedtime!

I just wanted to make sure the conclusion WASN'T that we/dnature hadn't returned the results. Is this correct @yesbut ? Or is my double negative poor grammar and I should not be so circumspect and say 'the conclusion should be we returned results'.

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41 minutes ago, Alastair said:

Sheesh, that's what I've been doing, sticking nice wet ones in thinking I'm giving those mites a good dosing.

 

Can't wait for written instructions. 

That point had been discussed in this thread previously. Not new information.

it may have even been in the summary document that @CraBee put together.

Good discussion aye? We have just found another gem in the method👍😁

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Copied this from an email - "can you write a description of a typical collapsing hive? How many frames of bees, how many frames of stores, new nectar, being robbed? Time to collapse? Dead bees seen out the front or on base board? No dead bees at all? etc"

 

The hives have nearly all been wintered as 2 full depth boxes with an excluder between. This is to keep my white combs white, to comply with possible future regulations. The hives entered winter very strong in bees and mostly with a full or near full honey box. However with Aucklands warm climate they do chew through quite a bit of that feed through winter.

 

This spring, due to lack of income last season, I have kept sugar feeding to a minimum and most hives at the time of the first round of staples were pretty light, with about 1/2 a box of honey or maybe less. Sugar was only fed on a case by case basis, when stores were almost all gone.

 

At the time the first round of staples was placed most hives had around 1 1/2 boxes of bees, they were stronger than normal for that time of year and my primary concern was swarming which I thought was going to be a nightmare, hence the decision to sell package bees. So the first round of staples were placed and at that time I marked the extra strong hives and came back later to take packages. The brood at that time was 3 to 5 frames and the hives bounced back quickly, I even took a second 2 kg package from some of the hives a few weeks later. It would be quite a stretch to say the hives were sick.

 

4 weeks later I removed the staples and put in new ones, which I had been advised to do. At that time I noticed shotgun brood and hives not thriving as I expected. Nothing really serious though. 

 

It was 4 weeks later when removing the second round of staples that things were seriously bad. All hives had gone backwards to a greater or lesser degree. The number of brood frames had increased, in the better hives to about 8, and decreased down to a couple in the crap hives. But the shotgun brood meant that 2 brood frames was only worth maybe one good one.

 

Never saw any unusual number of dead bees, I think the issue is lack of replacement bees due to reduced brood. Maybe shorter life span also but that's conjecture. Nearly all staples are removed now but I'm not expecting a quick bounce because the brood is so crappy. One thing is sure, I will not have to exert myself very much at honey harvest time.

 

For all but a few sites, no nectar at all has come in during the treatment time, they have lived on stores, or a few were fed syrup. Most hives have decent pollen supplies. The couple of sites I found today that were the least damaged are also the ones that did have a little nectar coming in during the treatment time.

 

No hives have been robbed, and none have died, although some pretty close to it.

 

Many of the staples were put in dripping wet, which i have now been told was bad, very bad. Which is maybe the cause of my problems.

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Jamesc must have an appointment with Dr Speights tonight, would be great to have had his poetic take on this 

4 minutes ago, Alastair said:

 

 

For all but a few sites, no nectar at all has come in during the treatment time, they have lived on stores, 

 

Many of the staples were put in dripping wet, which i have now been told was bad, very bad. Which is maybe the cause of my problems.

These 2 factors are clear differences in yours and my results. 

My own hives have small honey flows throughout winter and early spring... I don’t feed sugar and usually winter 3 boxes of bees , double brood , excluder,  1 super of honey. 

At work since staple experiment (into season 2 now)  we wintered 1FD brood and 1 3/4 stores, excluder, feeder containing a raw sugar bin and a bin for syrup. 

Work hives are worked every 3 weeks and fed syrup as required. 

Food is a factor in these differences I recon 

 

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1 hour ago, M4tt said:

So how is it getting in the food .

 

Are the bees ingesting it (doubtful ) or are they walking it into the  cells , and why is it only killing some larvae and not all . 


Does one bee feed one larvae per load , or do they move  from cell to cell and feed several

If bees chew out Gib tapes/cardboard/towels, then some indigestion is surely occurring? 

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2 hours ago, CraBee said:

syrup flow, and that having negative results - and could explain why OA/G seems to have the worst results (IMO) in Winter.

I only have 3 hives , no real sample , but my hive with staples that I moved into the hakea in mid may and had filled and capped a box of honey 8 weeks later didnt miss a beat .

But I had a hive at home in a damper spot without the flow that I had to keep putting in a smaller box .

 

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Interesting Kaihoka, yet another example of bees with staples and living on stores doing worse than bees with nectar coming in.

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2 minutes ago, Alastair said:

Interesting Kaihoka, yet another example of bees with staples and living on stores doing worse than bees with nectar coming in.

There is probably a chemistry and physics answer to this that a super computer and AI could sort out .

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8 minutes ago, kaihoka said:

I only have 3 hives , no real sample , but my hive with staples that I moved into the hakea in mid may and had filled and capped a box of honey 8 weeks later didnt miss a beat .

But I had a hive at home in a damper spot without the flow that I had to keep putting in a smaller box .

 

I agree regarding winter use.. damp is no good. 

Also think small colonies under a box of bees are best treated once they have expanded or treated with synthetics as the small colonies can take a long time to hit that critical mass to just take off. 

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6 minutes ago, kaihoka said:

There is probably a chemistry and physics answer to this that a super computer and AI could sort out .

 

I think it's more simple than that. Hives feeding their larvae from stores are feeding from combs that have had bees with dirty little OA infested feet running all over them. Hives bringing in nectar are feeding their larvae using fresh nectar with no oxalic acid exposure.

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36 minutes ago, Stoney said:

I agree regarding winter use.. damp is no good. 

Also think small colonies under a box of bees are best treated once they have expanded or treated with synthetics as the small colonies can take a long time to hit that critical mass to just take off. 

Interesting you say that, I have only one hive that has over wintered in the dampest conditions under the shadow of a very large poplar tree.  I lifted the hive mat and was concerned at the levels of condensation under the lid, this hive is a folly that we beginners sometimes make, a full depth box with a 3/4 depth of honey over winter.  So now it has two 3/4 depths and a full depth with an intention to transition to 3/4 depth to support the transition to old age.  The last couple of days I have been moving it meter by meter into the sun but I have to say it hasn't missed a beat with OA autumn and spring treatments but it is only one hive and cant form any conclusions.   There is not much around here over winter although the farmers around here are getting lazier and there is more growth of native trees that may support the bees earlier in the season.

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5 minutes ago, BJC said:

Interesting you say that, I have only one hive that has over wintered in the dampest conditions under the shadow of a very large poplar tree.  I lifted the hive mat and was concerned at the levels of condensation under the lid, this hive is a folly that we beginners sometimes make, a full depth box with a 3/4 depth of honey over winter.  So now it has two 3/4 depths and a full depth with an intention to transition to 3/4 depth to support the transition to old age.  The last couple of days I have been moving it meter by meter into the sun but I have to say it hasn't missed a beat with OA autumn and spring treatments but it is only one hive and cant form any conclusions.   There is not much around here over winter although the farmers around here are getting lazier and there is more growth of native trees that may support the bees earlier in the season.

By damp I mean the brood box sides are wet to touch, usually forming thick “slime” on inside of the boxes, can be simply from the pallet not sitting on level ground with rainwater sitting in puddles in corners of the vented pallet floor. 

These staples feel heavier and look different to dry hive staples.

 

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2 minutes ago, Stoney said:

By damp I mean the brood box sides are wet to touch, usually forming thick “slime” on inside of the boxes, can be simply from the pallet not sitting on level ground with rainwater sitting in puddles in corners of the vented pallet floor. 

These staples feel heavier and look different to dry hive staples.

 

That's the difference I guess my staples didn't absorb moisture but I would have thought that would have reduced the efficacy of the OA.  I haven't been happy with the moisture in the hive but haven't noticed any detrimental effects

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I see MPI may have just killed this thread !! 

 

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8 hours ago, JohnF said:

 

No, because we're all good friends here, I just wanted to make sure the conclusion was that we/dnature hadn't returned the results ! I can put them here but that requires @jamesc's permission.

 

One thing this does highlight though is my comment a short while ago about  beekeepers wanting research for free. There are a number of people who may well be seeing something similar as James or Alastair or others and are wanting to see their results . . .and will apply those results as 'so that's what's happening in my hives'.

I heard on the radio when the Cororapa first broke out and the discovery we made of Lotmaria passim in the country. One beekeeper was blaming this new pathogen for his hive losses. Had he got them tested? No - because we had the only test and he sure hadn't talked with us.

 

Thanks for the results john

came through last night

but it was friday, right

they are definitely worth sharing here

i’ll leave that you!

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6 hours ago, BJC said:

That's the difference I guess my staples didn't absorb moisture but I would have thought that would have reduced the efficacy of the OA.  I haven't been happy with the moisture in the hive but haven't noticed any detrimental effects

I had taken two nucs off the damp hive in late summer so I had reduced the number of young bees .

So there were not enough bees to keep the hive warm and the queen stops laying cause there are not enough bees to keep brood warm and a reducing cycle happens .

But the season before the hive was very full of bees going into winter and managed the damp situation better .

I did not have staples in then .

I think a strong enough hive to keep the hive warm is important .

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I’m wanting to update the summary document, including making it shorter. This who-dunit is very interesting.

 

To add to @kaihoka’s comment about damp, my formerly damp hives have only just started to come right now. All got OA and all had bad varroa which reduced fast. 

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@Alastair for what it's worth, a couple of comments about our hives (have found staples effective and safe).

 

1) haven't put staples in wet.  Don't care if they've got crystals on them, but we haven't put them in wet.

 

2) we're heavily involved in pollination - started in July in summerfruit, still going now in kiwifruit.  Relevance is that they're always on a nectar flow of some sort and when they're not, we're feeding syrup to maintain hive strength.  That might support your thoughts about stores vs fresh nectar.

 

3) we've got all hive doctor vented floors and dampness in the hive is never an issue.

 

@CraBee I have to admit to some nervousness after reading all the above on autumn treatments and have been thinking similar to you - maybe apivar.

 

cheers

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4 minutes ago, cBank said:

This who-dunit is very interesting.

A very interesting read.

Credit needs to be given to those parties who engaged in discussing the negative results in detail- it cant be easy to expose yourself to potential criticism.

During the life of the thread there has been a tendency towards positive only reporting, and not much focus on what has caused some to have less success - which will more than likely be a combination of factors, climatic conditions, beekeeping, site and feeding as well as use and misuse of the treatment.

 

to add to the data

I wintered on staples in 3 x 3/4 boxes. Inside my hives is damp in winter, ie resident slug. The bees had stores, no feeding. I didn't replace staples. The hives weren't overly strong at spring and were showing DWV. I chose to treat with Bayvarol. Bear in mind that  these are tame little urban hobby hives.

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10 hours ago, JohnF said:

 

Oooh, science ! Sorry I'm late

 

 

Are there dead bees @Alastair and others? It would be useful if those affected wrote a case history of a typical hive  eg. 3 weeks ago, 2 boxes - now down to handful of bees with food, pollen on board. Queen-right? Being robbed? Not being robbed?  etc

 

 

I'd be more worried that they'd be a waste of money. We don't like testing unless there is a good reason to do it or something suspicious

 


*cough*  Whispers: "Bayvarol @M4tt, not Apivar. We test for resistance mutations for Bayvarol/Apistan"

 

 

Can also be due to pathogens - a recent paper was mentioned here where shotgun brood queens shifted onto new frames started laying up a storm. So 'queen problems' might actually be pathogen/comb problems. Oksana Borowik wrote a good review of this in a recent NZ Beekeeper issue

John .... we really appreciate the fact that you did the testing for 'Mates Rates' .

I wonder what the real cost is for running what you did ?

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@jamesc the question has arisen.....what was the oa content of the staples you've used, ie did you wring them out or install them dripping ?

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On 7/11/2019 at 6:37 PM, Philbee said:

No Alastair the tone is perfectly fine and my advice is completely sound.
Get your Bees tested if you have any concerns, this surly must be some of the best advice available.

 

OK well i have no idea what to ask the lab to test them for.

 

So as you are giving the best advice available I'll take your lead, what should I ask the lab to test them for? 

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fwiw, we are at the hobby end of the scale and we've had excellent results from OAG staples (only 50 hives, but our sole treatment for 2 years now). Each staple weighs about 14g, and I apply 20g of solution (40/60) each. I buy them dry in a 20L pail but I only wet out about 65 - 70 per time in a 10L pail for carrying around. This is essentially a single layer round wheel of staples in the bottom of the bucket. So I make up the exact amount of solution for the number of strips  in 20g/14g ratio and there is no surplus. I tilt the bucket so the liquid pools and rotate the bucket 90 degrees every day or two. The staples don't go into the hives until they are quite dry. I often have one 10L bucket curing and one in use. I haven't ever had to deal with wet staples or surplus solution; it all gets soaked up. After a couple of weeks, some staples do come out with crystals, not many. I don't make the wheel of staples tight in the bucket because they expand as they absorb the solution and it could split an old bucket or muck up the absorption. Main reasons for this approach are that I don't like to touch the stuff more than I have to, so if it all soaks in then that is one less operation to deal with.

Edited by ChrisM
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1 hour ago, yesbut said:

@jamesc the question has arisen.....what was the oa content of the staples you've used, ie did you wring them out or install them dripping ?

Good question

we make them up a couple of days before they are needed, soaked overnight.

we cut holes in the bottom of two orange pails which are used as a sieve

staples tipped into those and drsined for a day into another bucket

works best in a warm room

and then hey presto.... two buckets of greasy staples ready for use

we gonna start putting staples back in bees as we pull synthetics out.... summer cover!

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