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Oxalic and glycerine

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.I think some people got the whole wrong idea where i am coming from with this.

 

I am not complaining because my hives have been badly damaged. I knew this was risky when I did it. I am certainly not expecting a road trip to be made, although it would probably be of benefit to Phil. Don't see it being any benefit to me.

 

My issue is the lack of rational discussion. Staples have not been portrayed here as a high risk thing. We have only been exposed to pictures of hives boiling over. Even just a few posts back see Phils last post, which is typical. Anything negative is squashed and the person saying it attacked. For example when I brought up the issue of spotty brood a few weeks ago I was told this has never happened before, it is unknown. What I've asked about over the last couple of days has not got any helpful responses, just denials and attacks. For example i have been asked if I am overstating things (lieing), or if i am also the guy who failed with bayvarol last year (just a crappy beekeeper), etc, etc.... I have essentially been accused of making the whole thing up, and there is an inability to accept that oxalic acid has any negative effects at all.

 

That has been frustrating and my last few posts did show that.

 

Truth is, I am hoping to continue using staples (if Phil will still sell them to me LOL 😉), I would like to use them again this coming winter. But first, I don't want to end up with no bees, therefore I am attempting to pick peoples brains so I can get the best result. That is not wrong, and should in fact be encouraged, if the eventual aim is to understand how to use OA staples successfully.

 

I used to sell bees and queens. If somebody contacted me with a problem and plenty did, I did not respond by saying there is actually no problem, nothing like this has ever happened before. I worked with that person until a good solution was reached.

 

Anyhow, because the issues I have raised have been dismissed / blamed on something else / disbelieved entirely, for the non believers I took a couple of pics today to help them with their non belief. 😮. One pic is of a hive that not long ago was a good one but has now dwindled to a tiny amount of bees, and the second pic is of a brood comb from the same hive showing spotty brood.

 

And no, the pics have not been photoshopped ha ha. 😉

 

 

 

small.thumb.jpg.49f28c31c029610b5a38c0aba366d6b4.jpg

 

 

 

spotty.jpg

Edited by Alastair
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2 minutes ago, Alastair said:

.I think some people got the whole wrong idea where i am coming from with this.

 

I am not complaining because my hives have been badly damaged. I knew this was risky when I did it. I am certainly not expecting a road trip to be made.

 

My issue is the lack of rational discussion. Staples have not been portrayed here as a high risk thing. We have only been exposed to pictures of hives boiling over. Even just a few posts back see Phils last post, which is typical. Anything negative is squashed and the person saying it attacked. For example when I brought up the issue of spotty brood a few weeks ago I was told this has never happened before, it is unknown. What I've asked about over the last couple of days has not got any helpful responses, just denials and attacks. For example i have been asked if I am overstating things (lieing), or if i am also the guy who failed with bayvarol last year (just a crappy beekeeper), etc, etc.... I have essentially been accused of making the whole thing up, and there is an inability to accept that oxalic acid has any negative effects at all.

 

That has been frustrating and my last few posts did show that.

 

Truth is, I am hoping to continue using staples (if Phil will still sell them to me LOL 😉), I would like to use them again this coming winter. But first, I don't want to end up with no bees, therefore I am attempting to pick peoples brains so I can get the best result. That is not wrong, and should in fact be encouraged, if the eventual aim is to understand how to use OA staples successfully.

 

I used to sell bees and queens. If somebody contacted me with a problem and plenty did, I did not respond by saying there is actually no problem, nothing like this has ever happened before. I worked with that person until a good solution was reached.

 

Anyhow, because the issues I have raised have been dismissed / blamed on something else / disbelieved entirely, for the non believers I took a couple of pics today to help them with their non belief. 😮. One pic is of a hive that not long ago was a good one but has now dwindled to a tiny amount of bees, and the second pic is of a brood comb from the same hive showing spotty brood.

 

And no, the pics have not been photoshopped ha ha. 😉

 

 

 

small.thumb.jpg.49f28c31c029610b5a38c0aba366d6b4.jpg

 

 

 

spotty.jpg

First thing that springs to mind , is where is the food ? This is exactly what my brood looked like two to three weeks ago as the blueberries stopped flowering .

Weak hives like that I merged into double queeners, the flow has picked up ,food is being stored and they are away . 

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It was a good hive with a box of honey above an excluder. It still has plenty of feed in the second box. Just, not many bees to eat it. 

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10 hours ago, Ted said:

 I’m sure all those that have tried them went in with there eyes wide open knowing it was an experimental treatment and so would accept some failures.  The problem lies with the complete lack of after sales support and defensive attitude  from the vendor.  Comments such as “I’m privy to some knowledge that you are not” and then not share that knowledge just fans the flames!!  

 

Considering someone is profiting from the production of this system don’t you think they have a responsibility to provide some follow up support??  At the very least - jump in the car and drive up to @Alistairand have a look at the hives in question and offer some support rather than sit back and repeatedly say “get your bees tested”!!  

recommend re-reading the mpi guidance posted above. The strips are not being sold as a varroa treatment, nor the OA or the glycerine.

Anyone embarking on using these strips is conducting their own experimentation - after-sales support should probably not have anything to do with the use of the sold product as a treatment for varroa - which wasn't/isn't what it is being sold as... going and having a look out of interest, not as after-sales support, would be something up to the person's impression of how much they would stand to learn from having a look i guess?

 

agree that the "privy to knowledge that you are not" is highly problematic.

 

edit to add: i'm impressed by everyone embarking on this experimentation that stands to benefit all of us. And I sense no hostility in the posts from @Alistair

to echo others, it would be great to be able to identify what has caused what works and what doesn't.

I wonder if there would be something to be gained from a record from numerous people who have used the strips to identify the various factors that may or may not have come into play? considering various of timing, feed levels, flow at time of treatment, hive movements, forage sources, average temps, um loads of other things that i obviously won't have listed.

 

Thoughts on starting a thread - something like "brainstorm factors that might effect varroa treatment success" for this purpose?

Edited by tommy dave
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1 minute ago, Alastair said:

It was a good hive with a box of honey above an excluder. It still has plenty of feed in the second box. Just, not many bees to eat it. 

They look kind of lonely rattling around in the bottom box on empty comb .

I would have replaced the outside combs with honey frames from the top box and jammed them back in the middle .

 

Not telling you how to suck eggs , just saying what I’d do . 
 

I also wouldn’t have the excluder in , so the population could have moved up into the honey with the queen 

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@glynn how are your hives and Oxalic treatments going using ova board?

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Appreciate the sensible advice Matt.

 

 

Edited by Alastair
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1 minute ago, M4tt said:

They look kind of lonely rattling around in the bottom box on empty comb .

I would have replaced the outside combs with honey frames from the top box and jammed them back in the middle .

 

Not telling you how to suck eggs , just saying what I’d do . 
 

I also wouldn’t have the excluder in , so the population could have moved up into the honey with the queen 

Of course , none of that matters .

 

If the population was large , then fell away , I can’t tell you why . 
I placed staples like that last year and the worst that happened was they killed brood that they blocked from emerging underneath , some mined the wax underneath , which they rebuilt after the removal of staples, and some queens wouldn’t lay underneath 

8 minutes ago, tommy dave said:

recommend re-reading the mpi guidance posted above. The strips are not being sold as a varroa treatment, nor the OA or the glycerine.

Anyone embarking on using these strips is conducting their own experimentation - after-sales support should probably not have anything to do with the use of the sold product as a treatment for varroa - which wasn't/isn't what it is being sold as... going and having a look out of interest, not as after-sales support, would be something up to the person's impression of how much they would stand to learn from having a look i guess?

 

agree that the "privy to knowledge that you are not" is highly problematic.

Agree with the top bit 

 

I suspect the reason for the bottom bit is ‘trial data that’s not yet ready for release ‘.

There won’t be any malice intended on Phil’s part , more like misinterpreting the tone in which he posted . 

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15 minutes ago, tommy dave said:

edit to add: i'm impressed by everyone embarking on this experimentation that stands to benefit all of us. And I sense no hostility in the posts from @Alistair

to echo others, it would be great to be able to identify what has caused what works and what doesn't.

I wonder if there would be something to be gained from a record from numerous people who have used the strips to identify the various factors that may or may not have come into play? considering various of timing, feed levels, flow at time of treatment, hive movements, forage sources, average temps, um loads of other things that i obviously won't have listed.

 

My thoughts also. In fact there was something i noticed today. I worked 5 OA treated sites, around 75 hives total. The first 3 sites were rubbish, then the last 2 were pretty good compared to what I'm used to lately, some even trying to swarm. And there was a difference, which was that the last 2 sites have had a drizzle of nectar coming in through most of the treatment period, where the other sites have been living on stores.

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20 minutes ago, tommy dave said:

"privy to knowledge that you are not"

Dont read to much into that.
A lot is happening and much is being learned each week, for example, and this is something I dont need to share just yet but will
Hives that receive the most intervention seem to do better.

Intervention may be opening a hive and removing all frames for a look
Its not conclusive but is standing out.
My thoughts are that stressing a hive may get the Bees moving around spreading ingredient.

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That is the special secret? 😄

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10 minutes ago, Alastair said:

 

My thoughts also. In fact there was something i noticed today. I worked 5 OA treated sites, around 75 hives total. The first 3 sites were rubbish, then the last 2 were pretty good compared to what I'm used to lately, some even trying to swarm. And there was a difference, which was that the last 2 sites have had a drizzle of nectar coming in through most of the treatment period, where the other sites have been living on stores.

Hey , just to add .

 

Right at the moment , even my good hives that have very good brood in the second box ( all 3/4 gear ) can have rubbish brood fairly identical to yours in the bottom box , again with no stores near the brood and the shotgun pattern . They really don’t like moving sideways in periods of low to no flow , but are fine with going up .

 

Im just pointing this out because it is a simple management difference which might be affecting something . If there was good brood in the second box, amongst the good food , I’m fairly certain there would be more bees in that hive 

As far as I’m aware the shotgun pattern is bees eating eggs for protein 

Edited by M4tt
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Good to know Matt.

 

But guess I should point out, that was a photo of one hive, before I worked it. Other hives have plenty food and different configurations. But one thing they nearly all have in common if treated with OA staples, is spotty brood.

 

Edited by Alastair

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As part of Randy Oliver's Oa/G trials he observed some negative effects from the treatment in one trial - larval morality and shot brood patterns.

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/extended-release-oxalic-acid-progress-report-2/

under the heading "A Surprising Result".

 

I also recall him mentioning somewhere else that if too much glycerin was used in the mixture it caused the oxalic acid to be discharged too quickly 

onto the bees and that caused bee agitation and bee deaths.

Oh its actually here:

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/extended-release-oxalic-acid-progress-report-4/

He mentions humidity contributing to that problem.

21 minutes ago, Alastair said:

 

My thoughts also. In fact there was something i noticed today. I worked 5 OA treated sites, around 75 hives total. The first 3 sites were rubbish, then the last 2 were pretty good compared to what I'm used to lately, some even trying to swarm. And there was a difference, which was that the last 2 sites have had a drizzle of nectar coming in through most of the treatment period, where the other sites have been living on stores.

 

I think there is something in that, oxalic acid finding its way into the food source when there is no nectar / syrup flow, and that having negative results - and could explain why OA/G seems to have the worst results (IMO) in Winter.

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Good research Craig, and I also think you are correct about it getting in food, i have even talked about that in this thread already, wasn't believed though.

 

My own experiments years ago with OA showed very clearly that you get shotgun brood if the OA gets in the brood food. This is what I attribute the shotgun brood to. I've been talking about it here cos I just want to know why some people don't have the problem, what is different.

Edited by Alastair
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1 minute ago, Alastair said:

Good research Craig, and I also think you are correct about it getting in food.

 

My own experiments years ago with OA showed very clearly that you get shotgun brood if the OA gets in the food. This is what I attribute the shotgun brood to. I've been talking about it here cos I just want to know why some people don't have the problem, what is different.

Have you got any shotgun brood amongst frames with good stores on the brood frames ? 

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Yes it is equally bad. If the hive was treated with OA staples, there will almost certainly be shotgun brood, regardless of configuration. Even the hives I checked today that were relatively good, had shotgun brood, unless they were not treated with OA staples.

 

 

17 minutes ago, CraBee said:

 could explain why OA/G seems to have the worst results (IMO) in Winter.

 

OK i know you have been using staples a while Craig, and you are in my area.

 

So what is your advice to me about how i should use staples this coming winter?

Edited by Alastair

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Just now, Alastair said:

Yes it is equally bad. If the hive was treated with OA staples, there will almost certainly be shotgun brood, regardless of configuration. Even the hives I checked today that were relatively good, had shotgun brood, unless they were not treated with OA staples.

Thank you .

That means it is related somehow to OA, or glycerine , given you have bayvatol treated hives within the same  apiaries which are good . ( which is what you said ). 
 

My hives routinely have shotgun pattern during the dearth after blueberry flowering , regardless of treatment , of which I’ve used most types available . 

 

So your shotgun pattern and mine are caused by something different . 
 

Is there a difference in mite loading in hives between Staple treated and Bayvarol treated ? 

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12 minutes ago, Alastair said:

Yes it is equally bad. If the hive was treated with OA staples, there will almost certainly be shotgun brood, regardless of configuration. Even the hives I checked today that were relatively good, had shotgun brood, unless they were not treated with OA staples.

 

OK i know you have been using staples a while Craig, and you are in my area.

 

So what is your advice to me about how i should use staples this coming winter?

 

I like the OA/G treatment for the most part, but for me I'm not going to be treating with them this coming Winter.  I think it is the time of the year when they are the least effective - bee numbers lower, lack of any flow, Winter moisture / humidity interacting with the treatment.  I also have a general concern that I shouldn't be using them constantly and that perhaps the hives eg wax and bees could do with a break from the acid. I'll probably use Apivar as that has the longest treatment length and I can stay out of the hives.   For the same reason of mixing it up I've used OA/G and Bayverol through Spring, and while I intended running some trials / comparisons, I've not followed through with that.  Oh well, it looks like you've got that covered :-))

Edited by CraBee
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2 minutes ago, M4tt said:

Thank you .

That means it is related somehow to OA, or glycerine 

 

Finally, the penny drops. 😄

 

As I've been saying, the difference between the OA treated hives and the bayvarol treated hives is stark. A lot of the OA treated hives look like that last pic, a lot of the bayvarol treated hives are in 3 boxes. Night and day. 

 

It is because it is so blatantly obvious, that the denials are not cutting it for me.

 

2 minutes ago, M4tt said:

Is there a difference in mite loading in hives between Staple treated and Bayvarol treated ? 

 

Can't give a straight up answer because I didn't test any of the bayvarol treated hives. However as far as mite kill in the OA treated hives has gone, in general I am very happy with that, I have to test many 300 bee samples before I can find a mite.

 

Look. The issue with the bees and the brood is the OA. I am in no doubt about that. All i want to know is why. Why my hives, and why a bunch of other peoples hives who have spoken with me, but why not some other peoples hives.

 

Solve that, and we could make this thing work reliably. There are mysteries in this life, but nothing has to be a mystery. In theory, everything can be explained if we just investigate hard enough.

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6 minutes ago, Alastair said:

 

Finally, the penny drops. 😄

 

As I've been saying, the difference between the OA treated hives and the bayvarol treated hives is stark. A lot of the OA treated hives look like that last pic, a lot of the bayvarol treated hives are in 3 boxes. Night and day. 

 

It is because it is so blatantly obvious, that the denials are not cutting it for me.

 

 

Can't give a straight up answer because I didn't test any of the bayvarol treated hives. However as far as mite kill in the OA treated hives has gone, in general I am very happy with that, I have to test many 300 bee samples before I can find a mite.

 

Look. The issue with the bees and the brood is the OA. I am in no doubt about that. All i want to know is why. Why my hives, and why a bunch of other peoples hives who have spoken with me, but why not some other peoples hives.

 

Solve that, and we could make this thing work reliably. There are mysteries in this life, but nothing has to be a mystery. In theory, everything can be explained if we just investigate hard enough.

Yep , there will be a reason .

I’m right out of ideas at the moment .

 

Something is clearly messing with your brood pattern , but I just don’t know what mechanism or how 

Edited by M4tt

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3 minutes ago, M4tt said:

Yep , there will be a reason .

I’m right out of ideas at the moment .

 

Something is clearly messing with your brood pattern , but I just don’t know what mechanism or how 

 

Oxalic acid is getting into the food supply and being fed to larvae, killing them (IMO).

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It's OA in the food. Adult bees can be damaged by OA in the food, but the larvae from just emerged eggs are far more susceptable and can be killed by the tinyest concentration. Thus, shotgun brood.

 

Easily distinguished from PMS because with PMS you see dead larvae, with OA caused shotgun brood, you don't.

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So how is it getting in the food .

 

Are the bees ingesting it (doubtful ) or are they walking it into the  cells , and why is it only killing some larvae and not all . 


Does one bee feed one larvae per load , or do they move  from cell to cell and feed several

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5 minutes ago, M4tt said:

So how is it getting in the food .

 

That simple question, is essentially what I have spent the last several pages trying to get an answer to. 😉

 

Or more precisely, why is it not getting in the food, in some peoples hives, and how could i emulate that.

Edited by Alastair
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