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Oxalic and glycerine

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41 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Im privy to some knowledge that you are not.
You shouldn't bring  Bayvarol comparisons into it either.

Again, my best advice is that you get your Bees tested

Idid. I rang the O800 hotline with MPI and sent samples up for testing. I finally got a reply . No exotic incursions . It is not in their mandate to go beyond that and delve deeper into ussues that might affect humanity.

I am none the wiser.

I sent more samles to John F ..... and I need to quietly scroll back and find out what he found out before sticking my head up and becoming a target.

I think it's highly pertinent to bring Bayvarol into the conversation.

The conversation is about keeping bees alive and ensuring that operations have live bees with which to generate income to sustain families and communities..

Bayvarol is a tool that has great success.

To move forward we need something that will either equal or better that. 

 

Horses are great for moving around on. Bur then came along Mr Ford and we learnt to move a little bit faster. Horse sstill work for those who have the time, but most of us don't.

The same with varroa treatments. Commercial  operations need a reliable treatement that works well, time over time and does'nt need multiple visits every few days.

To read that Phil has live hives after seven months between treatments is great. It's more than great . It's revolutionary and I want what he has ..... but it has to work in my system.

Bayvarol, Apivar and Apitraz do.

The question is ..... can we do better ?

 

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I would be very keen to hear what the results were from @JohnF

i don’t think anyone would target you for sharing would they ?

we and others I know experienced the same issues with hives coming  out of winter that you have so I’m thinking whatever was going on in your hives was probably going on in ours.

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Alastair and others - I think the reason you are not getting answers is possibly because no one has those answers. This is still kinda new, we can all hypothesise reasons for what we’re seeing until the cows come home, but unless someone is prepared to spend serious cash on lab research to look at mechanisms for bee effects, we’re probably not going to get an accurate answer.

 

as I’ve already said - I’m not at all convinced this is a straight bee tox issue.  Reason being that once hives have had OA strips for awhile, it seems you can hit them really hard and they no longer have those adverse impacts. I’ve put 10 fresh strips in a double box hive This spring in an effort to slow them down, with zero apparent effect. However like you say, I put 6 in some boxes in winter and had a major bee kill as I reported somewhere back up this thread.

 

could be due to bee health (Sick bees die scenario)

 

could be due to bee numbers (large hive less OA per bee or some bee deaths not as apparent scenario)

 

could be the acidification thing you mention (maybe they “get used to it” scenario)

 

could be a food supply thing - someone commented above along these lines (during a flow bees cope fine scenario)

 

hell, I’ve even been thinking there could be some gene expression or up regulation effects, with whatever that means for how bees react...


there will be other suggestions but like I say, I’m not sure we’ll ever have hard answers, certainly not in the short term.

 

ive played a lot with formic and pretty much all of the above applies to that acid as well.  Using formic at the rates I do, on a small colony in say august, means they only just recover in time for our flow in late November!  Same or even heavier dose at the start of the flow or if they are on the brink of swarming has almost zero bee impact at a colony scale

 

plenty of ideas and it still beats all those little plastic strips I’ve had to dump in the past

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3 hours ago, jamesc said:

 

To move forward we need something that will either equal or better that. 

Commercial  operations need a reliable treatement that works well, time over time and does'nt need multiple visits every few days...... but it has to work in my system.

Bayvarol, Apivar and Apitraz do.

The question is ..... can we do better ?

 

At work we are well into our second season experimenting with ox/gl .. in several thousand hives. Why does it show really positive results for us and not others?? 

Our morning yarns between unit managers  no longer contains the subject of mites or wing rot. 

The bees look awesome. 

My own bees are also into their second season experiment, yes I lost population at the first August round, but they bounced straight back, I’ve since split them in half and they are again building and exactly where I want them. 

I see mites very occasionally and it is a surprise when I do. Drone brood is clean and only a very occasional rotten wing. 

Thats opening 150-200 lids a week at a quess.. 

i honestly dont get why we see what we see and others hives a dwindling to a cup of bees?

I Can’t believe it. 

 

4 hours ago, Alastair said:

This is over hundreds of hives and it is not plausable that all the staple treated hives are sick and by some remarkable coincidence, none of the bayvarol treated ones are.

 

 

Alastair correct me if I’m wrong but was it you last season that had bees tested for resistance to bayvarol after a mite issue popped up following bayvarol treatment? 

Someone on here was having problems but results came back negative? 

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Stand corrected Stoney it wasn't me.

 

I did have some hives the bayvarol didn't do well at killing the mites but I didn't get anything tested. Having learned from that experience, I don't leave strips sitting in the sun any more, and have had no further problems.

 

BTW you wouldn't test bees for bayvarol resistance, if you were to test anything, you would test the mites.

 

1 hour ago, Stoney said:

I Can’t believe it. 

 

Which is the denial I'm talking about, and why i am wasting my time here.

 

I'll be back once I've got the test results Phil is insisting on, and see what pearls of wisdom you people are able to dispense then.

.

And, sorry if I seem rather sarcastic. It's because being disbelieved, accused of overstating, being dishonest, is pretty insulting and adds to the injury. I don't believe you either, if you are claiming you have never seen a hive go down the toilet caused by oxalic acid. It's hard for me to believe that.

Edited by Alastair

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7 hours ago, Stoney said:

At work we are well into our second season experimenting with ox/gl .. in several thousand hives. Why does it show really positive results for us and not others?? 

Our morning yarns between unit managers  no longer contains the subject of mites or wing rot. 

The bees look awesome. 

My own bees are also into their second season experiment, yes I lost population at the first August round, but they bounced straight back, I’ve since split them in half and they are again building and exactly where I want them. 

I see mites very occasionally and it is a surprise when I do. Drone brood is clean and only a very occasional rotten wing. 

Thats opening 150-200 lids a week at a quess.. 

i honestly dont get why we see what we see and others hives a dwindling to a cup of bees?

I Can’t believe it. 

 

Alastair correct me if I’m wrong but was it you last season that had bees tested for resistance to bayvarol after a mite issue popped up following bayvarol treatment? 

Someone on here was having problems but results came back negative? 

Climate ....?

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6 hours ago, Alastair said:

Stand corrected Stoney it wasn't me.

 

I did have some hives the bayvarol didn't do well at killing the mites but I didn't get anything tested. Having learned from that experience, I don't leave strips sitting in the sun any more, and have had no further problems.

 

BTW you wouldn't test bees for bayvarol resistance, if you were to test anything, you would test the mites.

 

 

Which is the denial I'm talking about, and why i am wasting my time here.

 

I'll be back once I've got the test results Phil is insisting on, and see what pearls of wisdom you people are able to dispense then.

.

And, sorry if I seem rather sarcastic. It's because being disbelieved, accused of overstating, being dishonest, is pretty insulting and adds to the injury. I don't believe you either, if you are claiming you have never seen a hive go down the toilet caused by oxalic acid. It's hard for me to believe that.

Alistair im sensing some extreme hostility here..

For the record I am in no way dis believing you or your findings, “I can’t believe it “ is not a personal attack in any way. 

Put in context.. 

A bit Iike a train crash in front of your eyes.. “I can’t believe that just happened” 

 

I really shouldn’t have to explain myself here but there you go. 

This thread should be for sharing ideas and findings/ experiences not attacks. 

 

Also for the record there has never been a live beehive either of my own or at work that has dwindled down to a handful of bees due to oxalic staples, the only dwindled hives we had over winter were all at the same bush site too long last autumn and bogged themselves out with Dew. 

Hand on heart our bees are expanding, drawing wax and in some cases swarming .. not going backwards. 

This is what I’m seeing and is simply my findings. 

It would be really helpful to know the how and why of the extreme differences being seen. 

 

 

 

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58 minutes ago, Stoney said:

Alistair im sensing some extreme hostility here..

For the record I am in no way dis believing you or your findings, “I can’t believe it “ is not a personal attack in any way. 

Put in context.. 

A bit Iike a train crash in front of your eyes.. “I can’t believe that just happened” 

 

I really shouldn’t have to explain myself here but there you go. 

This thread should be for sharing ideas and findings/ experiences not attacks. 

 

Also for the record there has never been a live beehive either of my own or at work that has dwindled down to a handful of bees due to oxalic staples, the only dwindled hives we had over winter were all at the same bush site too long last autumn and bogged themselves out with Dew. 

Hand on heart our bees are expanding, drawing wax and in some cases swarming .. not going backwards. 

This is what I’m seeing and is simply my findings. 

It would be really helpful to know the how and why of the extreme differences being seen. 

 

 

 

I don't sense too much hostility, more frustration at not being heard. I also shared my Tape outcome, and no one could give me a answer. There are others, who either don't share or are not here on forum. We hear the success but fail to see hives thrive when using it. Do we suck at our jobs? Our bees are sicker? Our conditions don't suit? 

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13 minutes ago, Gino de Graaf said:

 I also shared my Tape outcome, and no one could give me a answer. 

I’m sorry but I don’t have the answers for you, I wish I did..

 all I can do is listen to the failures and try and understand what the differences are in use between success and fail. 

This is all fairly new and we ARE the experiment. 

Yes some people have had rubbish outcomes that’s certainly not being denied by me,  it’s trying to get to the bottom of the WHY.. like what was done differently to my positive outcome.. 

 

beekeeping styles and techniques vary so much it makes getting to the “what’s different” very difficult.. its not like we are talking about bricklaying here. 

 

 

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Some time back , I sent mites to @JohnF from a heavy infestation from one of my Apivar failure hives .

All that could be said was the mites didn’t have the markers for resistance to Apivar .

 

There are a few ways to interpret that .....

 

Faulty strips

Beekeeper user  error 

Resistant mites , but not to the current known markers 

Constant reinvasion 

In hive conditions 

External factors (Temp/ humidity / timing ) 

Incorrect bee populations 

Sugar fed Versus honey fed 

Malnutrition vs honey bound 

 

 

The list goes on 

 

With Staples, the same range of various factors apply .  Both islands are vastly different and regions within each island show probably more variation .

 

Unfortunately, Staples , like every other treatment , are not a silver bullet .

 

Its quite important we keep posting observations and keep learning how these differences affect different hives .

 

I fully understand the frustration of treatments not working and the elation of something that does.

 

Keep sharing people 😊

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1 hour ago, Gino de Graaf said:

I don't sense too much hostility, more frustration at not being heard. I also shared my Tape outcome, and no one could give me a answer. There are others, who either don't share or are not here on forum. We hear the success but fail to see hives thrive when using it. Do we suck at our jobs? Our bees are sicker? Our conditions don't suit? 

I just have to give my 5 cents worth even though I’ve never used staples.  Totally agree with you @Gino de Graaf.  I only sense frustration from yourself @Alistair @jamesc and others.  Anecdotally I have heard similar reports from a number of local beekeepers here who have tried staples.  I’m sure all those that have tried them went in with there eyes wide open knowing it was an experimental treatment and so would accept some failures.  The problem lies with the complete lack of after sales support and defensive attitude  from the vendor.  Comments such as “I’m privy to some knowledge that you are not” and then not share that knowledge just fans the flames!!  

 

14 hours ago, Pinnacle said:

Alastair and others - I think the reason you are not getting answers is possibly because no one has those answers. This is still kinda new, we can all hypothesise reasons for what we’re seeing until the cows come home, but unless someone is prepared to spend serious cash on lab research to look at mechanisms for bee effects, we’re probably not going to get an accurate answer.

Considering someone is profiting from the production of this system don’t you think they have a responsibility to provide some follow up support??  At the very least - jump in the car and drive up to @Alistairand have a look at the hives in question and offer some support rather than sit back and repeatedly say “get your bees tested”!!  

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2 hours ago, Ted said:

The problem lies with the complete lack of after sales support and defensive attitude  from the vendor.  Comments such as “I’m privy to some knowledge that you are not” and then not share that knowledge just fans the flames!!  

 

Considering someone is profiting from the production of this system don’t you think they have a responsibility to provide some follow up support??  At the very least - jump in the car and drive up to @Alistairand have a look at the hives in question and offer some support rather than sit back and repeatedly say “get your bees tested”!!  

When I purchased staples it was made clear to me they are not yet a licensed varroa treatment, I was using them at my own risk. I assume others were given the same caveat. 

Phil has stated openly that trails are in progress. 

For the record I’ve had success and failures with the staples too. Some hives are booming and just about as many have dwindled.

I believe we need to understand the differences in location, climate and hive condition when first treated. 

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2 hours ago, nikki watts said:

For the record I’ve had success and failures with the staples too. Some hives are booming and just about as many have dwindled.

I believe we need to understand the differences in location, climate and hive condition when first treated. 

All the more reason for Phil to go on a road trip to observe first hand what is going on in other people’s hives rather than focusing solely on his own.  

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2 hours ago, nikki watts said:

For the record I’ve had success and failures with the staples too. Some hives are booming and just about as many have dwindled.

I believe we need to understand the differences in location, climate and hive condition when first treated. 

 

I would have thought that the very experienced like Alastair who had both ox/gl and Bayvarrol in each apiary trialed to eliminate most of those variables.

 

1 minute ago, Ted said:

All the more reason for Phil to go on a road trip to observe first hand what is going on in other people’s hives rather than focusing solely on his own.  

 

Particularly where it would mean the opportunity to observe hives in a real commercial situation where last seasons honey was taken off the hives.

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54 minutes ago, Ted said:

All the more reason for Phil to go on a road trip to observe first hand what is going on in other people’s hives rather than focusing solely on his own.  

 

49 minutes ago, Sailabee said:

Particularly where it would mean the opportunity to observe hives in a real commercial situation where last seasons honey was taken off the hives.

And how exactly is a "snapshot" of today's hive going to explain anything ?  You buy a trial product on anecdotal evidence, you take your chance. 

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6 minutes ago, yesbut said:

 

And how exactly is a "snapshot" of today's hive going to explain anything ?  You buy a trial product on anecdotal evidence, you take your chance. 

 

I spent a couple of decades working in chemical product development and the wider the information base, and the wider the distribution of product assessment and trialing, the greater relevancy  of the results. Personally, hives which had no honey crop taken off do not really compare with any commercial operation that I know of, and indeed many hobbyists.

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10 minutes ago, yesbut said:

You buy a trial product on anecdotal evidence, you take your chance. 

Yes I agree and I’m sure that most of those concerned with their results accept that - however I think Phil should be far more proactive in trying to support these guys in trying to discover the reasons for their failures.  Not only for their sakes but for his as well because there is certainly a lot of “noise” around the traps that there has been some considerable issues with the treatment and anyone sitting on the fence - me included - will be very reluctant to give it ago without some resolutions.

4 minutes ago, Sailabee said:

And how exactly is a "snapshot" of today's hive going to explain anything ?

If nothing else it would be a good customer relations exercise.

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1 minute ago, Ted said:

Yes I agree and I’m sure that most of those concerned with their results accept that - however I think Phil should be far more proactive in trying to support these guys in trying to discover the reasons for their failures.  Not only for their sakes but for his as well because there is certainly a lot of “noise” around the traps that there has been some considerable issues with the treatment and anyone sitting on the fence - me included - will be very reluctant to give it ago without some resolutions.

 

Hi @Ted  I'm interested in hearing a bit more detail about those what the issues you've heard about are?

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29 minutes ago, CraBee said:

 

Hi @Ted  I'm interested in hearing a bit more detail about those what the issues you've heard about are?

As I mentioned I haven’t used staples myself nor have I viewed any hives that have been treated with them but I have certainly been told anecdotally by 3 very experienced individual beekeepers that they used them for their Autumn treatment and have had similar issues as described by @jamesc and @Alistair.  

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I know of one other commercial who tried the Staples and said to me he wouldn't use them again. Knocked the population too much. 

@Stoney, Did you feed the bees sugar syrup when the first spring treatment went in, or protein or a nectar flow -five finger/Willow?

I didn't, and maybe empty bee guts can make bees intolerant of acid. A feed of syrup,or fresh nectar may help.

Our hives build up using mainly  stores from August, until we have to feed- October. Fresh pollen from dandelion, that's about it. Some Willow.

 

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Today I found this unwelcome swarm in this half box.

Lets see if it can be persuaded to leave dead or alive.

As for the comments about the secret knowledge, 
What I know has been learned from my trials.
 

There is another Hive that Ive been attempting to kill with this stuff for 3 years now
I visited it yesterday and despite being given 400g of 40% 3 times a year for 3 years now, it is still 4 boxes of Bees.
Yesterday I went to put another box on but realised I couldn't do that as the honey in the hive is for residue testing and adding a box for new honey would skew the trial.
I walked away from that hive not really knowing what to do.

 

unwelcome swarm.jpg

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54 minutes ago, Ted said:

Yes I agree and I’m sure that most of those concerned with their results accept that - however I think Phil should be far more proactive in trying to support these guys in trying to discover the reasons for their failures.  Not only for their sakes but for his as well because there is certainly a lot of “noise” around the traps that there has been some considerable issues with the treatment and anyone sitting on the fence - me included - will be very reluctant to give it ago without some resolutions.

If nothing else it would be a good customer relations exercise.

I don't quite understand all the hype that is being generated here.  You have an experienced beekeeper willing to share his ideas on OA, spend sometime and money developing a variety of prototype strips that we now call staples.  He is conducting a carefully run trial to satisfy MPI of the treatment regime he has found successful, oh and he is prepared to help anyone who asks on how to use it, and how he mixes his OA and Glycerine.   Many of us have given it a go, mixed are own, made our own staples, bought staples from someone else, got someone else to make us a brew to our specs.  Some of us have had great results and others what may be called disasters.   Give Phil a bit of space to get on with his trials in the knowledge that he will share his results when their ready to made public.  As far as I am concerned he doesn't owe anyone anything.

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6 minutes ago, BJC said:

I don't quite understand all the hype that is being generated here.  You have an experienced beekeeper willing to share his ideas on OA, spend sometime and money developing a variety of prototype strips that we now call staples.  He is conducting a carefully run trial to satisfy MPI of the treatment regime he has found successful, oh and he is prepared to help anyone who asks on how to use it, and how he mixes his OA and Glycerine.   Many of us have given it a go, mixed are own, made our own staples, bought staples from someone else, got someone else to make us a brew to our specs.  Some of us have had great results and others what may be called disasters.   Give Phil a bit of space to get on with his trials in the knowledge that he will share his results when their ready to made public.  As far as I am concerned he doesn't owe anyone anything.

Again I reiterate I have not used Phil’s staples or physically seen the results of the treatments.  I am purely looking in from the outside and what I see are a number of beekeepers who have been prepared to give Phil’s staples a go and paid for the privilege - knowing full well it was a trial system.  Those that have had bad results are asking for help/advice as to what went wrong and it would appear from their growing frustration that no help or advice is forthcoming.  As far as I’m concerned Phil owes a bit of after sales customer service and support to these guys.

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3 hours ago, Ted said:

All the more reason for Phil to go on a road trip to observe first hand what is going on in other people’s hives rather than focusing solely on his own.  

Phil has made himself available for Q&A and was even at the mini conference put on by the Thames bee club (and possibly a southern NI one as well?). I’ve had losses that I attribute to nutritional issues rather that the method of delivery. Hives that have had correct/adequate nutrition are the bane of my life as they are on swarm control.

 

 

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Ted I'm sorry, but I disagree.

 

As others have stated, this is very much an early trial product and we're all playing and learning to use it.  While Phil has supplied laminated strips - at the behest of others I might add - he has been clear that they're for trial.

 

I doubt that Phil has somehow made a stack of cash out of this so far. I think if he took his time, hive losses, machinery development etc into account he still be in the red (my assumption).

 

if someone asked me to go on a "road trip" at this time of year, with hives at full rip, moves going on, treatments in and out, honey flow starting etc I would be telling them "no way".  

 

Again - this is a trial product. Perhaps those that have gone 100% hell for leather across all of their hives and completely changed their varroa management overnight with an unproven product, should be looking at their own decisions, not someone else's.  Take some personal responsibility.

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