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Oxalic and glycerine

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9 hours ago, Kiwi Bee said:

@Philbee you said that your "X" hive had the staples in from april till recently. Did you do a tongue test? Was there any acid left? How/why did the bees not chew those staples in bits and pieces? What do you think?

 

@Alastair you said that those hives where you added an extra box, hoping the bees will expand the brood, actually shrank. When you added the extra box did you put staples in that box?

I just did the same now in the spring Few of my hives looked like that they'll benefit if there will be an extra box especially because I don't plan to visit them for 4 weeks. So I added the extra box and I put staples into it too. I'll check them in a couple of weeks.

For the record to date

There is currently a 45 Hive licenced trial in progress for the use of 40% Oxalic Acid / 60% Heavy food grade Glycerine for the control of Varroa Mite
This trial started on 04-04-19.
This trial therefore covers the Autumn and spring period.

The trial Hives were choosen randomly and have random aged Queens.
Due to poor weather the Spring portion of the trial which uses the same trial group as the Autumn period, was late starting.
This saw 10 Hives treated 20th Sept 2019  and the balance treated in the first few days of November 2019.

The Autumn period demonstrated efficacy but it was also important to look at the Laminate's ability to withstand the Spring Hive environment given that past experience had shown that the Bees were inclined to be far more Hygienic during the Spring period.

The ability to withstand the Bees hygienic activities is an important part of efficacy and or effectiveness.
 

The results of the trial to date show that OA/GL is a highly effective Varroa control method and that at the trial dosages which are high, have not damaged the trial Hives.

Of the 45 Hives that started the trial (there was a double up of numbers so there is a 32 and a 32a Hive), 39 hives are alive currently and participating in the ongoing trial.

Deaths relate to accidental damage, Drone layers, culling of a control hive and an unexplained.

 

If there was a tendency for OA/GL to dwindle hives it would have shown up in the trial and or on my own use of the system in production Hives and it has not.
 

On the matter of superceedure I have seen this trial hives this season, as the treatments went in this week so it is probably unrelated to treatment.

 

One of the trial sites (Site 2) which was chosen randomly, had a significant die off when treated last spring and also what Id view as the poorest Autumn trial results, now has outstanding spring results and no adverse reaction to treatment this Spring.

The methods for the trial include full photographic and white board records which means that all the data can be checked.
It is a very robust trial.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Philbee
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1 hour ago, Don Mac said:

 

@Alastair have you analysed those bees left in the hive for nosema ceranae. 

 

No i haven't.

 

1 hour ago, Don Mac said:

 If you are not measuring and monitoring with all the tool boxes available to a beekeeper, you are only guessing.

 

Yes i'm guessing.

 

However it would be a remarkable coincidence statistically, if over the several hundred hives I am experimenting on, the majority of staple treated ones had N Cerana, and none of the bayvarol treated ones had it. In fact it would be such a stretch, that I'm not even going to bother with tests for it.

 

38 minutes ago, Pinnacle said:

@Alastair if you go right back early in this thread somewhere you might remember some comment/discussion or musings on treated hives losing some bee numbers After treatment due to pms or maybe virus load or whatever.  The thought being that there was some issue with those bees that wasn’t obvious visually but became expressed after exposure to strips.

 

Yes i have read that thought. Like you say, it was a thought that's all. No proof has been presented.

 

Some years back (before Phil had bees), i did some experimentation with OA, i worked with OA for several years, there is even a video somewhere on this site of me doing it. I've trialled a few different methods of application and do know the effects it has on bees and brood, and what I'm seeing now is typical. Most people, Phil included, appear unaware of how OA affects brood if it enters the food supply.

 

Because of what some are saying that bees <get used> to staples, I will continue using them, I would very much like them to work. All I'm doing here is giving a balanced reporting of my results.

 

 

Edited by Alastair
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@Alistair
Could you could set out some of your past methods which I assume included oral dose via Sugar Syrup

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Can discuss, after i get home tonight.

And some homework for you Phil. The claim is repeatedly made that where dwindling occurs associated with treatment, it is sick bees being purged, and once the sick ones are gone, the hive has eliminated the pathogens and there is no further dwindling. 

 

Has there ever been any lab tests showing a reduction in N Cerana, or any other pathogens, to back this often repeated claim? Or is it just a guess?

 

I don't really have to back my claims with lab tests, as I'm just a user, reporting my findings. People are free to take or leave them, no skin off my nose I have no vested interest at all. But if lab tests are being asked for, the onus would normally be on a product vendor making claims, to back those claims.

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2 hours ago, frazzledfozzle said:

@Don Machave you heard of similar experiences out of the South Island ?

@jamesc have you had any results back yet ?

No results yet.

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30 minutes ago, Alastair said:

Can discuss, after i get home tonight.

And some homework for you Phil. The claim is repeatedly made that where dwindling occurs associated with treatment, it is sick bees being purged, and once the sick ones are gone, the hive has eliminated the pathogens and there is no further dwindling. 

 

Has there ever been any lab tests showing a reduction in N Cerana, or any other pathogens, to back this often repeated claim? Or is it just a guess?

 

I don't really have to back my claims with lab tests, as I'm just a user, reporting my findings. People are free to take or leave them, no skin off my nose I have no vested interest at all. But if lab tests are being asked for, the onus would normally be on a product vendor making claims, to back those claims.

You need to be clear and concise in your description of what your are seeing.
There is a big differnce between a hive that gets a "check" ( pause in growth) and a dwindling hive.
Are you possibly  using the word "dwindling"out of context. 
 

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2 hours ago, jamesc said:

No results yet.

 

*cough*   really?  :10_wink:

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The thought that, Sick Bees get expelled during tape treatment has been expressed often.  I don't believe it myself. Bees just get killed when tapes go in, then rebound. The hives can look noticable smaller a few days after. 

I believe it's a dosage issue, possibly too much acid versus strength. Maybe the tapes initially release too much?

If the bees are into a pollen/nectar flow it's not such an issue. It is if your hives are building up on stores, the queen just isn't rocking enough. 

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56 minutes ago, JohnF said:

 

*cough*   really?  :10_wink:

 

56 minutes ago, JohnF said:

 

*cough*   really?  :10_wink:

Oh.... we got some results, i’ll have to check later as we are stuck at “lights”

but i think u said u wre gonna rin somthing else....

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4 hours ago, jamesc said:

 

Oh.... we got some results, i’ll have to check later as we are stuck at “lights”

but i think u said u wre gonna rin somthing else....

Realise you are at the traffic lights, but you may have sent the newly hatched pink queen bee into the screaming abdabs with that post.

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7 hours ago, Philbee said:

You need to be clear and concise in your description of what your are seeing.

Are you possibly  using the word "dwindling"out of context. 

 

No I'm not. I said that hives that not so long ago were strong enough for me to take 2 kg packages of bees from, have now dwindled to a fistful of bees.

 

You ask me to be more clear and concise? Exactly how?

 

Thing is, I'm having problems with the staples. I am looking for solutions. 

 

To solve a problem, a person first has to believe the problem exists. Then he can work on solving it. Denying it doesn't solve it.

 

Unfortunately in this thread, if I mention a problem, it is met with denials, I am asked to produce scientific studies to prove it (which i had the courtesy to do), and it is even inferred that beekeepers having problems are not the best of beekeepers.

 

I have also been asked to give a full rundown of all my work and various methods i have trialled with oxalic acid in the past. This is rather a lot of work, so, just exactly what is it you would like to know?

 

I'm dissappointed. I was kinda hoping i could say, I'm having this problem, what can I do about it? And then somebody would tell me.

 

And please nobody make the vulgar mistake of thinking this is a personal attack. I'm just wanting a useful discussion that can be of help to me, that's all.

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21 minutes ago, Alastair said:

 

No I'm not. I said that hives that not so long ago were strong enough for me to take 2 kg packages of bees from, have now dwindled to a fistful of bees.

 

You ask me to be more clear and concise? Exactly how?

 

Thing is, I'm having problems with the staples. I am looking for solutions. 

 

To solve a problem, a person first has to believe the problem exists. Then he can work on solving it. Denying it doesn't solve it.

 

Unfortunately in this thread, if I mention a problem, it is met with denials, I am asked to produce scientific studies to prove it (which i had the courtesy to do), and it is even inferred that beekeepers having problems are not the best of beekeepers.

 

I have also been asked to give a full rundown of all my work and various methods i have trialled with oxalic acid in the past. This is rather a lot of work, so, just exactly what is it you would like to know?

 

I'm dissappointed. I was kinda hoping i could say, I'm having this problem, what can I do about it? And then somebody would tell me.

 

And please nobody make the vulgar mistake of thinking this is a personal attack. I'm just wanting a useful discussion that can be of help to me, that's all.

You need to get your Bees tested.
To claim you know better is akin to your above claims of denial. 

 

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Phil how about you run some tests. It is you claiming that OA killing bees is the result of sick bees. 

 

How about some evidence?

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Also Alastair 

2 minutes ago, Alastair said:

Phil how about you run some tests. It is you claiming that OA killing bees is the result of sick bees. 

 

How about some evidence?

You need to get your Bees tested.

What you are unaware of is a current trial into this "check" phenomenon, the results of which Im not going to share until the overall trial is finished around the end of the month.

However what I will say, again, Get your Bees tested 

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I'm not testing them because as previously said, the difference between the staple treated hives and the bayvarol treated hives is stark. This is over hundreds of hives and it is not plausable that all the staple treated hives are sick and by some remarkable coincidence, none of the bayvarol treated ones are.

 

I just don't buy that.

 

However now you have revealed that you are conducting a trial into the problem, I am happy. You are doing what you can, and I respect that.

 

I will await the results, and hope for solutions.

Edited by Alastair

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Yo ....I kinda agree with Alistair.

When something works we are all to shout out about our success. When it fails we go hide in the corner.  We had a total failure with the staples from last January onwards. This spring I got scared and went back to synthetics or I would have had NO bees left.

But NO ONE seems to have an idea why my staples failed. Sounds like Alistair is having problems too. There are others out there below the parapit in a similar situation.

We desperately want the staples to work because they could well be the way forward ..... but we need science to lead the way..... not a band of backyard hobbyist's doing a bit of tinkering.

My apologies in advance if I upset anyone.

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I am not denying that staples kill mites. They do, except in certain circumstance which i think i understand now and hopefully can work around.

 

Just, there is also a toxicity problem to bees. That i believe, needs more work.

 

End of day we need hives that produce the largest possible honey harvests. At this time i am thinking my harvest this coming season is likely to be 1/2 what it was last season. Could a trial be run to compare honey harvests from staple treated hives compared to synthetic treated hives?

 

Or maybe that would be a little unfair at this early stage, the application of staples still has some bugs to be worked out. But I'm hoping that some serious effort will in fact be put into working them out.

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1 minute ago, Alastair said:

I am not denying that staples kill mites. They do, except in certain circumstance which i think i understand now and hopefully can work around.

 

Just, there is also a toxicity problem to bees. That i believe, needs more work.

 

End of day we need hives that produce the largest possible honey harvests. At this time i am thinking my harvest this coming season is likely to be 1/2 what it was last season. Could a trial be run to compare honey harvests from staple treated hives compared to synthetic treated hives?

 

Or maybe that would be a little unfair at this early stage, the application of staples still has some bugs to be worked out. But I'm hoping that some serious effort will in fact be put into working them out.

Im privy to some knowledge that you are not.
You shouldn't bring  Bayvarol comparisons into it either.

Again, my best advice is that you get your Bees tested

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Why no comparisons to bayvarol?

2 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Im privy to some knowledge that you are not.

 

Well as long as this knowledge is privy only to you, it is no help to me.

 

Why no comparisons to bayvarol?

.

I am constantly comparing one method with another, and attempting to do what's best.

 

It's my job to do that.

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8 minutes ago, Alastair said:

Why no comparisons to bayvarol?

 

Well as long as this knowledge is privy only to you, it is no help to me.

 

Why no comparisons to bayvarol?

.

I am constantly comparing one method with another, and attempting to do what's best.

 

It's my job to do that.

If you have a number of hives that go from hero to zero over a very short period of time you have an obligation to get them tested.
Or have you somehow overstated the issue??

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Why would i overstate the issue?

 

The tone of this whole discussion is real bad Phil. 

 

I just want some straight up answers to some issues, and i don't think you should feel attacked, or try to say i am lieing. If the answers are not known at this time, just say so. I can wait until the results of whatever tests you are doing come in. But claiming to have some unspecified secret knowledge that nobody else does, isn't helping.

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I think we need to be careful that while Oa/Gl has worked well for a number of bk's that it is also conceivable that OA/Gl has not worked well for other bk's in other situations.  

That's not to say that either side is right or wrong just that their experience has been different.

We know O/G works, but equally we don't know the full extent of the effects they have on the bees / larvae when fed / residue in wax / Queen viability etc etc as this is a new application and detailed, broad rigorous scientific work has not been undertaken, that work is only just beginning.

Edited by CraBee
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3 minutes ago, Alastair said:

Why would i overstate the issue?

 

The tone of this whole discussion is real bad Phil. 

 

I just want some straight up answers to some issues, and i don't think you should feel attacked, or try to say i am lieing. If the answers are not known at this time, just say so. I can wait until the results of whatever tests you are doing come in. But claiming to have some unspecified secret knowledge that nobody else does, isn't helping.

No Alastair the tone is perfectly fine and my advice is completely sound.
Get your Bees tested if you have any concerns, this surly must be some of the best advice available.

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Might I wade in here ?

 

We know that synthetics are more or less non toxic to bees , therefore the dosing tolerance is high . In other words , overdosing won’t affect bees .

 

We also know that the tolerance of bees to organic acids is low , ie , the dose rate to     kill mites is getting quite close to being toxic to bees . 
 

It is realistic to expect , armed with this info , that OA will kill bees that are not in full health , and bayvarol probably won’t .

 

The theory fits the observations at least . 
 

We actually need to get some uniformity with our experiments and actually collect and test the dead bees that are excessive , to either rule a cause out , or confirm it .

 

They would also be best tested at the same place 

 

@JohnF would be the most obvious candidate for doing the job and collating data, to me 

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If i get them tested, then what?

 

Frankly i don't think you will be able to give any further useful information. I already know what the issue is, toxicity of OA to bees. Blaming it on the bees being sick is a red herring, and one you have no evidence for, it's something somebody thought up. You won't run tests for it yourself, just ask me to run tests. As the vendor, you should be running tests.

 

In fact, I am wasting my time here. I'll contact JohnF about getting some bees tested but the way this discussion has gone, I'm pretty certain that when the results are in, i will still get zero useful advice here. The tests are a waste of time but i'll just do it anyway.

 

And because you seem to be taking this as a war of words, rather than an attempt on my part to get help, I'll be leaving the conversation for now, I'll come back once I have test results.

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