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Oxalic and glycerine

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45 minutes ago, dansar said:

Trial a couple of apiaries half synthetic and half Oxalic/glycerin gib (or cardboard) strips?

 

I've pretty much done that Dansar, just, not 1/2 and 1/2, the great majority were done with staples but i did 1 or 2 or 3 with bayvarol in most apiaries just so I could compare. 

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11 hours ago, Philbee said:

If this hive is such an outlier, why are your using it as an example?

I guess because it is just that ..... an example of what was a live hive , treated as all the others ..... but never made it.  A strong hive will rise above and defeat  the wax moth ....

There are many factors that might have affected it. Disease, queenless, starvation ..... BUT ..... as they went into the dew each and every hive was checked ..... for disease, eggs , mite,and feed .  

It's just another one of lifes big mysteries.

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11 hours ago, jamesc said:

I guess because it is just that ..... an example of what was a live hive , treated as all the others ..... but never made it.  A strong hive will rise above and defeat  the wax moth ....

There are many factors that might have affected it. Disease, queenless, starvation ..... BUT ..... as they went into the dew each and every hive was checked ..... for disease, eggs , mite,and feed .  

It's just another one of lifes big mysteries.

Are you sure that is not a summer treated Hive  (January)

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Hi Beekeepers

MPI has just published this Guidance Document which all who participate in this forum should read.

 

Advertising and own-use guidance for  compounds for management of disease in beehives.

Copy attached.

 

You will note that MPI considers Varroa destructor as a disease - see cover, then as a parasite in paragraph 5 page 3 and as a pest in 3.1.1.(1) a page 4.

 

Note Section 4 is similar to what has been previously published in The Beekeeper earlier this year.

Advertising-and-own-use-guidance-beekeepers(1).pdf

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@Don Mac, in your opinion , does this new set of guidelines make this thread illegal, in that the published  findings of users could be deemed to be advertising ?

 

Given this thread was published before the new ‘testimonial’ section was written , where does that sit ?

 

 

I presume they can’t prosecute retrospectively of the date on the document ? 
 

These questions need definitive answers 

Edited by M4tt

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53 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Are you sure that is not a summer treated Hive  (January)

For sure ... it was treated in january as we took honey off.

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38 minutes ago, M4tt said:

@Don Mac, in your opinion , does this new set of guidelines make this thread illegal, in that the published  findings of users could be deemed to be advertising ?

 

Given this thread was published before the new ‘testimonial’ section was written , where does that sit ?

This whole thing sits in the outrageously typical beaureacratic crapola pile. MPI is far happier dictating don'ts than actually being helpful. Ggrrrr. We'll all have to have a permit to fart soon.  

Edited by yesbut
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6 minutes ago, yesbut said:

 

This whole thing sits in the outrageously typical beaureacratic crapola pile. MPI is far happier dictating don'ts than actually being helpful. Ggrrrr. We'll all have to have a permit to fart soon.  

Yep totally agree .

 

MPI being helpful would be a darn sight more helpful 

 

😡 

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Meh, it’s an arse-covering manoeuvre by MPI. History would show very few instances (if any) of compliance action in any industry sector, for those accused of breaching acvm regulations, beyond sending a “sternly worded letter”.
 

I reckon MPI have published this so if something goes wrong they can point to it and say “we told them the rules”

 

I agree with the pink cat, some group of bureaucrats has gone home tonight thinking they have accomplished something important when actually...

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Its entirely possible that MPI have been put in a difficult position and my advice would be dont poke the Bear

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4 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Its entirely possible that MPI have been put in a difficult position and my advice would be dont poke the Bear

party pooper

Edited by Pinnacle
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52 minutes ago, yesbut said:

We'll all have to have a permit to fart soon.  

If the greens and Labour have their way then yes

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This thread is about oxalic acid / glycerine, not a specific product.

Also, as it is not about a product, people's observations are just that, not testimonials.

So, :IMG_0380:

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23 minutes ago, CraBee said:

This thread is about oxalic acid / glycerine, not a specific product.

Also, as it is not about a product, people's observations are just that, not testimonials.

So, :IMG_0380:

Im all for referring to the popular soakage device as a "Paper Tape Laminate", or "laminate"

This takes the descriptive aspect to the next level which is really important when having an open discussion forum like this.

 

Edited by Philbee

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48 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Its entirely possible that MPI have been put in a difficult position and my advice would be dont poke the Bear

agree with @Philbee

imagine, for a moment, if the sellers of registered treatments were seeing a significant decline in revenue (or, even worse for them, a stockpile of imported treatments that they've paid for and can't shift, and that are rapidly approaching expiry) directly attributable to oxalic/glycerine (remember, still a non-registered treatment and illegal to sell as a treatment) and made a formal complaint to mpi - they have no choice but to respond in some fashion... and there are definitely people (not in this thread as far as i know) illegally selling pre-soaked strips as a varroa treatment and being noisy about it

Edited by tommy dave

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1 minute ago, tommy dave said:

imagine, for a moment, if the sellers of registered treatments were seeing a significant decline in revenue directly attributable to oxalic/glycerine  and made a formal complaint to mpi - they have no choice but to respond in some fashion... and there are definitely people (not in this thread as far as i know) illegally selling pre-soaked strips as a varroa treatment and being noisy about it

It's hard to imagine anything much happening.

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1 minute ago, yesbut said:

It's hard to imagine anything much happening.

i meant that the published advice could well be the response to such a complaint...

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1 minute ago, tommy dave said:

i meant that the published advice could well be the response to such a complaint...

Ah yes, I wonder if the complainant is on this forum ?

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2 hours ago, M4tt said:

@Don Mac, in your opinion , does this new set of guidelines make this thread illegal, in that the published  findings of users could be deemed to be advertising ?

 

Given this thread was published before the new ‘testimonial’ section was written , where does that sit ?

 

 

I presume they can’t prosecute retrospectively of the date on the document ? 
 

These questions need definitive answers 

 

Do not Panic Mr @M4tt

I cannot see how a web discussion thread on a novel idea can be constructed as advertising......but some people may try. Here are 3 facts to help you & MPI sleep tonight.

 

  1. Predating this thread is the Varroa Contol Booklet by Goodwin & Taylor, published by MPI (MAF for early editions) - the green one we all own. And it specifically gives a beekeeper own use method for using oxalic acid and formic acid. So is the book advertising - no way, it was a guidance document.
  2. The use of oxalic acid + glycerine was in a published scientific paper by Argentine scientists looking at a new Varroa treatment. Are published scientific papers advertising?                   I doubt if MPI can suggest that is credible with any validity. Note even Randy Oliver writes up and self publishes his results in a scientific format - full transparency of his results is his methodology - not advertising or a testimonial in my book. There is no law against being transparent with the reporting of results and experience - that is called free speech.
  3. Please read Section 4(4) on page 5 of the MPI guidance document. It requires a beekeeper user to ensure they have the knowledge and capability to safely ensure the fitness for use of their own use product. That means they have to get that knowledge  for a 'good understanding' of the product from somewhere. Looks like a specific MPI instruction to me.         That is self education and it is done by researching the scientific literature, published books (including MPIs Varroa Book and Practical Beekeeping) and asking questions or reporting on results on a forum such as this.  True when the Regulations were first written, no  one in MPI was visioning the place of websites and on line forums to provide the education source and give beekeepers the required understanding for safe and proper use..

The big question is the reporting of results and experience on a forum such as this a testimonial?

My personal opinion (Has not been run past a lawyer) is that a discussion on results and experiences, whether verbal or on an internet forum is not a testimonial when a person is endeavouring to share an understanding and knowledge about the methodology. that is an education process in compliance with 4(4) page 5.

 

Example: "I treated my 4 hives with oxalic staples I made myself. 3 hives had excellent varroa control +90% kill based on mite counts and the 4th hive collapsed and I am investigating why the colony  died out." This is a report in my opinion and not a testimonial.

 

But I am not sure if there is a legal beagle in MPI who wants to bet his future legal promotion on making a case to the NZ Courts on what is exactly a testimonial or advertising.

My thinking he has a lot more easier meat to snaffle such as a bee nutrition and health tonic supplements promoting disease control in bees than the use of oxalic and glycerine.

 

I think MPI have done a good job making sure they have informed beekeepers to comply with the law they administer which has provisions for own use.

 

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@Philbee you said that your "X" hive had the staples in from april till recently. Did you do a tongue test? Was there any acid left? How/why did the bees not chew those staples in bits and pieces? What do you think?

 

@Alastair you said that those hives where you added an extra box, hoping the bees will expand the brood, actually shrank. When you added the extra box did you put staples in that box?

I just did the same now in the spring Few of my hives looked like that they'll benefit if there will be an extra box especially because I don't plan to visit them for 4 weeks. So I added the extra box and I put staples into it too. I'll check them in a couple of weeks.

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Yes i put staples in the extra boxes so probably overdosed for the amount of actual bees.

 

Today i checked a site that a while back had big strong hives that were good enough to take packages off at a couple of kilos a hive, today the hives have shrunk to a fistful of bees, and I'm writing that site off for any honey production this season i'll be happy just to get them in good shape for winter. I think i overdosed plus had treatment in too long, I'm now convinced oxalic can hurt the bees and it's super important not to overdose.

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6 hours ago, Alastair said:

Yes i put staples in the extra boxes so probably overdosed for the amount of actual bees.

 

Today i checked a site that a while back had big strong hives that were good enough to take packages off at a couple of kilos a hive, today the hives have shrunk to a fistful of bees, and I'm writing that site off for any honey production this season i'll be happy just to get them in good shape for winter. I think i overdosed plus had treatment in too long, I'm now convinced oxalic can hurt the bees and it's super important not to overdose.

 

@Alastair have you analysed those bees left in the hive for nosema ceranae.  If the hive has shrunk rapidly to a Queen and a handful of bees you are looking at the same symptoms of Coromandel Colony Collapse. There has been reports of a number of hives experiencing nosema ceranae this season in the North Island and the only way to find out is to have the bees analysed by a Lab.  If you are not measuring and monitoring with all the tool boxes available to a beekeeper, you are only guessing.

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@Don Machave you heard of similar experiences out of the South Island ?

@jamesc have you had any results back yet ?

Edited by frazzledfozzle

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@Alastair if you go right back early in this thread somewhere you might remember some comment/discussion or musings on treated hives losing some bee numbers After treatment due to pms or maybe virus load or whatever.  The thought being that there was some issue with those bees that wasn’t obvious visually but became expressed after exposure to strips.  I still have no idea what the mechanism is but I’m not convinced it’s straight OA toxicity, because I’ve only seen the symptoms you describe in hives treated for the first time.

 

it seems when I follow staples with staples there is zero obvious impact on bees. I commented to Phil is is almost as though they have a “memory” and once they’ve dealt with it before it is much easier next time around. I know that’s not the right term, but once the hives are running on staples it seems I can stick any old number in and I’m not too precious about how wet they are or whether they’re covered in crystals or whatever, the bees seem to cope fine.

 

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12 minutes ago, Pinnacle said:

@Alastair if you go right back early in this thread somewhere you might remember some comment/discussion or musings on treated hives losing some bee numbers After treatment due to pms or maybe virus load or whatever.  The thought being that there was some issue with those bees that wasn’t obvious visually but became expressed after exposure to strips.  I still have no idea what the mechanism is but I’m not convinced it’s straight OA toxicity, because I’ve only seen the symptoms you describe in hives treated for the first time.

 

it seems when I follow staples with staples there is zero obvious impact on bees. I commented to Phil is is almost as though they have a “memory” and once they’ve dealt with it before it is much easier next time around. I know that’s not the right term, but once the hives are running on staples it seems I can stick any old number in and I’m not too precious about how wet they are or whether they’re covered in crystals or whatever, the bees seem to cope fine.

 

I would second your observations , but would add ...

 

The first time I used staples was out of desperation . Hives had already collapsed mid winter after already having three other treatments since mid Feb , all of which left the hives full of mites and DWV. They were down to a cluster of bees and a queen . 

Remarkably, these severely compromised hives did not suffer mass bee deaths with the staples, but instead slowly but surely geared up and gained momentum, helped along by syrup to get the queens nourished and laying . The turn around was immediate . 
From memory , I only had one hive that wintered strongly that year , so it was a major . 
Before staples , I had never successfully wintered all my hives any where near satisfactorily . 
Before varroa , I had no trouble getting hives through winter , but I only had 3 Hives way back then .

 

I have certainly seen dead bees outside hives after staples are put in , but it was only temporary and never lead to the hives going backwards , and none reacted that way in the past year . 
 

I’d certainly look at Cororapa for those having problems . 
 

I have not been able to get staples to negatively affect bee populations long term 

Edited by M4tt
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