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Oxalic and glycerine

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19 minutes ago, Jamo said:

The strips have worked fine in the other 99% of my hives. It's just the few hives where the mites got out of control that are the issue. Seams to be taking a lot more effort to get under control. Some of these hives have had 12 - 15 frames of good brood added over the spring but are still only a box of bees.

 

The mites may be gone but the viruses linger.   I also think when a hive has a high mite load the Queen is then no good and should be replaced.

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At this stage I feel spring and autumn treatment need to be managed differently .

 

From my point of view , autumn / winter staples must be placed in the brood , and be moved with the cluster as it shrinks . Remove excess staples if they are no

longer required in the cluster . That gets them through to removal and replacement in August .

 

Then in August , with negligible mites, if any , the staples work well on the edge of the brood and moved out along the frame as the brood expands . .

 

Why ?

 

Following the flow and removal of honey , there will be mites in hives . Nailing them with staples in the brood is the best way . There is also a constant threat of reinvasion as winter approaches and hungry bees from elsewhere are sharing their mites around , and add to that a bit of robbing from your own bees and bringing mites home . The staples must be in contact with the majority of the bees . 

 

In spring , the less brood damage the better . The staples are in there as a preventative at that point , not a treatment .

 

Just my latest thoughts from my own experience 

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2 hours ago, Jamo said:

In my opperation of approx 500 hives I have maybe 8 hives that moved away from their synthetic strips over winter and became heavily infected. These hives all got boosted with additional healthy brood and treatment with bayverol back in August. Since then they have all had extra brood injections and since end of Sep have had apivar treatment go in but some are still struggling with mites.

It seams that it is now much much harder to get on top of heavy mite loads with synthetic strips.

So my question to Phil is do ox gl staples have a faster knockdown that synthetics?

I know that formic would maybe better in these situations and after this year am wondering seriously if petrol would be better for this type of hive.

 

Well Jason I cant make claims.
However, looking at the data from my licenced trial it appears to me that under some circumstances OA/GL in strip form will save Autumn Hives with massive mite loads.

My milestone or realization pointed out yesterday relates exactly to this point.

My understanding is now that Mites dont seriously damage Hives.

I liken it to the two different types of stampedes of Horses.

The first is when a bunch of horses stampede toward you without riders, this is easy to escape from, simply get behind a tree or rock.

The second type of stampede is when the horses have riders up with swords, this is a Cavalry Charge and you are about to die.

 

The Horses are the Varroa and the riders are the Pathogens.

Riderless Varroa are not a big deal.

 

So to answer your Question as I see the issue, (An oppinion only)

Its likely that some Hives with high mite loads by association  have high pathogen loads which affects the Bees ability to move the active ingredient around the Hive.

In these cases any contact strip will be less effective where as a Volatile Acid like Formic might be just the ticket.

 

I suspect that my trial hives that survived massive mite loads in Autumn had very low Pathogen counts.
 

One more point,
My Hives have good nutrition and have not had sugar syrup for a couple of years.
So there may be an issue to look at here including the question, Has anyone had a good look at modern Sucrose and its manufacturing methods??

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3 hours ago, Jamo said:

 am wondering seriously if petrol would be better for this type of hive.

 

With all that extra brood etc do you think a split from a healthy hive have been a better option ??? 

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In my instance, I shift bees into pollination. They get exposed to  a lot of other hives/bees. A great place to share virus loads

Does the overall strength matter at treatment time? Could a strong hive react well while another weaker one gets a kick? Phill's bees look strong, 

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47 minutes ago, Gino de Graaf said:

In my instance, I shift bees into pollination. They get exposed to  a lot of other hives/bees. A great place to share virus loads

Does the overall strength matter at treatment time? Could a strong hive react well while another weaker one gets a kick? Phill's bees look strong, 

Have a good look at the two hives in the comparison post above.

This is the same trial hive in Autumn and Spring.

The white board covers a lot of the Autumn photo but it does indicate that it wasn't a strong hive at all, rather poor looking in fact.

Holy Cow, one point I forgot to mention about the comparison hive  photo is that it's in site 2 and site two is a site Ive mentioned before where every Hive in the site took the mother of all hits from OA/GL last Spring.

The Hives including number 33 all dumped large numbers of Bees dead out front.

I made the comment then and since that I believed the Hives which were all over wintered splits from one donor site were sick and the die off was a result of this

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4 hours ago, Alastair said:

Thanks, I'm already thinking about the autumn treatment. So it's looking like just put one batch of strips in and forget about it till spring?

 

Don't have to answer, but only if you don't mind, what % winter losses have you had across your whole outfit?

With all due respect .....I would be very hesitant about putting one lot of staples into the hives  in the autumn and walking away.

We seem to be living in an era where  the phrase "Beware of false prophets" springs to mind.

4 hours ago, Jamo said:

The strips have worked fine in the other 99% of my hives. It's just the few hives where the mites got out of control that are the issue. Seams to be taking a lot more effort to get under control. Some of these hives have had 12 - 15 frames of good brood added over the spring but are still only a box of bees.

Mite count please 💋

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39 minutes ago, jamesc said:

So it's looking like just put one batch of strips in and forget about it till spring

Yep , nah don’t do it . The clusters will move away from the staples and leave them exposed 

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Just got in from working bees today, up to now I've been pleased with the staples. But today I found hives at several sites crawling with mites. These have had the first round of staples in for 4 weeks then a second new round in for 4 weeks. It's not that the bees were harmed, at least directly, it's that the mites simply have not been killed. There is so much PMS that the hives are borderline past saving. 

I have been carrying some bayvarol as a precaution so as I pulled the staples I replaced with bayvarol, we'll see how it works out.

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1 minute ago, Alastair said:

Just got in from working bees today, up to now I've been pleased with the staples. But today I found hives at several sites crawling with mites. These have had the first round of staples in for 4 weeks then a second new round in for 4 weeks. It's not that the bees were harmed, at least directly, it's that the mites simply have not been killed. There is so much PMS that the hives are borderline past saving. 

I have been carrying some bayvarol as a precaution so as I pulled the staples I replaced with bayvarol, we'll see how it works out.

Heck 😬

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2 hours ago, Alastair said:

Just got in from working bees today, up to now I've been pleased with the staples. But today I found hives at several sites crawling with mites. These have had the first round of staples in for 4 weeks then a second new round in for 4 weeks. It's not that the bees were harmed, at least directly, it's that the mites simply have not been killed. There is so much PMS that the hives are borderline past saving. 

I have been carrying some bayvarol as a precaution so as I pulled the staples I replaced with bayvarol, we'll see how it works out.

Did you have the staples in the right place😉.

While some of Phil's results show some very impressive knock downs for me it has been key to keep mite numbers as low as practically possible.

Also got to wonder about abandoned hives falling over causing reinvasion levels of epic proportions.

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The strips were right through the middle of the brood nest. No pussyfooting around the edge 😉

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7 hours ago, jamesc said:

 

Mite count please 💋

Sorry no mite counts yet been too busy trying to keep them out of the trees.

Am seeing the odd mite in drone brood in the 99%  good hives . In the other 1% the hives are not strong enough to have drone brood and too scared to do a mite wash as the mites might outnumber the bees. Like I said probably should have killed them and started from clean slate.

Most of the hives look very good.

Edited by Jamo
Photo

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@Jamo I don't have commercial experience so I don't have the reason to give advice here. However When I come across a weak hive in the early spring(varroa or other reason) I no longer play with it like years ago when I did just like you(adding brood and bees). I better combine the weak hive with another strong one(first I kill the weak hive's queen). Or another way I do if the weather is fine and it is in the morning, I'll kill the queen and I give a lot of smoke to those bees to get some food into their mouth, then 10 minutes later I shake all the bees on the ground several meters away. I leave nothing where this hive was. The brood/food frames if any will be spread to other hives in the apiary.

Obviously I check the weak hive for AFB before I "demolish" it.

Vasteing the time to figure out what may be the reason behind weakening that hive(apart from AFB or obvious/visual varroa signs) it's not my cup of tee. I'm not that smart.

1 - Demolish the hive(takes minutes)

2 - Move on

3 - Make a split few weeks later if needed

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On 26/10/2019 at 10:27 AM, Philbee said:

My Hives have good nutrition and have not had sugar syrup for a couple of years.


I’m growing my apiaries from scratch, splitting and expanding as much as possible... so my hives have eaten a lot of sugar to survive and build comb. I’ve been using staples for at least 18 months and prior I used towels and vapour... I’ve barely lost any hives, with exception of some starved, and all seem really healthy, happy and vibrant. So, I don’t think syrup causes me any problems! 

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LOL, an Australian woofer at one of my sites wanted to see the bees so i put her in a suit and we opened the first hive. Soon as i took the lid off she says What's That? I say it's a feeder incase i have to feed them some sugar. She goes "you feed them sugar?😨". Her eyes darkened and i could see she had picked up the sugar is bad myth from somewhere, not to mention she now was wondering if i was an evil, bee hating, psycho killer.

 

I could not be bothered running through with her that bees get their carbs from honey, and everything else being minerals, vitamins, protein, and whatever, from pollen. I just continued and opened the hive. "Wow" she goes, "they do look healthy". "And happy" i said 😉

 

The landowner later told me she really enjoyed looking at the bees, so i think i may have disavowed her of at least one beekeeping myth. 

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Ok, so, in the cool of the verandah this morning I sat scrolling through photos and wondering at the demise of my hives last year. And I started looking at the dates and the strengths of the colonies. So I'll throw these photos up as something to put into Phils trials ..... that a smarter brain than mine can use them to the communal advantage in order to learn how to use the O/A to our advantage.

Ah crud ..... someones hacked my data and the phone don't work  and it's getting bogged with ads.

8086C956-E2F1-4866-BAF7-54B92D431725.jpeg

0E3074BF-490D-418B-AF86-E55D518913B1.jpeg

D61169B7-8871-453F-AB9C-DFCBC0B498D8.jpeg

1BF5E637-E765-4EE2-B78F-504E39D8A282.jpeg

CF6E0F6F-C8AA-4959-953D-21AEC925F1A0.jpeg

21 minutes ago, jamesc said:

Ok, so, in the cool of the verandah this morning I sat scrolling through photos and wondering at the demise of my hives last year. And I started looking at the dates and the strengths of the colonies. So I'll throw these photos up as something to put into Phils trials ..... that a smarter brain than mine can use them to the communal advantage in order to learn how to use the O/A to our advantage.

Ah crud ..... someones hacked my data and the phone don't work  and it's getting bogged with ads.

8086C956-E2F1-4866-BAF7-54B92D431725.jpeg

0E3074BF-490D-418B-AF86-E55D518913B1.jpeg

D61169B7-8871-453F-AB9C-DFCBC0B498D8.jpeg

1BF5E637-E765-4EE2-B78F-504E39D8A282.jpeg

CF6E0F6F-C8AA-4959-953D-21AEC925F1A0.jpeg

OK .... got that done.

 

I was looking at the photos, and the dates ...... and I got to thinking. We started taking honey off on January 8 2019, and as we took honey off we placed four staples in the brood. On the 7 march the bees still looked good, and many had done another two boxes. We placed more staples at about that time, and it was after that that the hives collapsed.

Why ?

Some had a very high mite loading, but past experience from the staples  told us they could control the problem .

The second to last photo says it all.

The last photos says we just hunkered down into hibernation and would pick up the pieces in the spring.

 

I am still nine the wiser as to the collapse, apart from the fact that the Varroa won the battle, possibly.....

 

 

Edited by jamesc
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Here's my worse Hive of the day.
I opened it for the first time today since it was treated 5 April 19 and the treatments shown have been in over winter.

Id guess that along with the rest of the site its found a collapsing wild Hive/swarm somewhere and ended up with a count of 30/400.

Another 3 in the site had counts of 25, 20, 15.

Two other sites, each within 250m had counts of 0,1,2's today when they got their first Spring treatments. (3 months late).

This Hive did have a couple of DWV Bees but the Brood was in slabs and mint condition.

 

worst for the day.jpg

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Crikey dick ..... I'm moving north .  I'm sure we could squeeze a few more hives in somewhere.

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8 minutes ago, jamesc said:

Crikey dick ..... I'm moving north .  I'm sure we could squeeze a few more hives in somewhere.

Id swap places with you tomorrow but then your'd likely want to shift back

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Believe me .... I want the staples to work ..... but I do wonder if there is'nt a bit of photographic licence going on here. I fail to believe that you can walk away from a hive on the 5 April and return to find it alive .... and looking sweet ... eight months later . 20 years ago,  quite posssibly ..... in this day and age ..... yeah , Nah.

 

But .... if that is the case , then I have a LOT to learn, and I will be the first to admit that I do not know everything.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, jamesc said:

Believe me .... I want the staples to work ..... but I do wonder if there is'nt a bit of photographic licence going on here. I fail to believe that you can walk away from a hive on the 5 April and return to find it alive .... and looking sweet ... eight months later . 20 years ago,  quite posssibly ..... in this day and age ..... yeah , Nah.

 

But .... if that is the case , then I have a LOT to learn, and I will be the first to admit that I do not know everything.

 

 

I take that as the ultimate in compliment 

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16 minutes ago, jamesc said:

Crikey dick ..... I'm moving north .  I'm sure we could squeeze a few more hives in somewhere.

I’m moving south !

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8 minutes ago, jamesc said:

Believe me .... I want the staples to work ..... but I do wonder if there is'nt a bit of photographic licence going on here. I fail to believe that you can walk away from a hive on the 5 April and return to find it alive .... and looking sweet ... eight months later . 20 years ago,  quite posssibly ..... in this day and age ..... yeah , Nah.

 

But .... if that is the case , then I have a LOT to learn, and I will be the first to admit that I do not know everything.

 

 

It is a bit hard to believe .

 

Mine would be empty of bees from swarming if I left them to it ....... if they’d survived winter 

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10 minutes ago, Philbee said:

I take that as the ultimate in compliment 

 

I couldn't treat any of my sites in early April and come back now to find them alive/recoverable in November.  I think Phil has the benefit of having his sites relatively isolated.

 

James, in your photo series, the last photo June 1 that can't be part of the series though - because impossible IMO for a hive to deteriorate that badly from being alive to wax moth wall to wall in six weeks....also on that last photo it looks like a blue shop towel on top of the bars.

Edited by CraBee

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