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Oxalic and glycerine

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Yes as per M4tt, there was the first round of staples placed around 8 weeks ago, and they were removed around 4 weeks ago and replaced with new ones, which I started removing today.

 

If i do any alcohol washes I'll report back.

Edited by Alastair
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1 minute ago, Alastair said:

Yes as per M4tt, there was the first round of staples placed around 8 weeks ago, and they were removed around 4 weeks ago and replaced with new ones, which I started removing today.

Excuse my ignorance but why did you replace them?

 

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The instructions I've been given is that an 8 week treatment period is needed, but the strips only last about 4 weeks. So you replace at 4 weeks with new ones.

 

That's unless I misunderstood?

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3 minutes ago, Alastair said:

The instructions I've been given is that an 8 week treatment period is needed, but the strips only last about 4 weeks. So you replace at 4 weeks with new ones.

 

That's unless I misunderstood?

Oh I only replace mine if they are well chewed,  @Philbee  can you give your opinion.

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10 minutes ago, Alastair said:

The instructions I've been given is that an 8 week treatment period is needed, but the strips only last about 4 weeks. So you replace at 4 weeks with new ones.

 

That's unless I misunderstood?

 

My experience is they last about four weeks when they are in the middle of a busy brood nest with heaps of bee traffic.  The best way I know to tell what life they have left in them is to pull them out and give them the taste test.  It is soon apparent if there is oxalic left in the staple.  It's great to hear your experience so far is that that they are dealing to the mites 🙂

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Its been my experience that with the possible exception of Formic Acid, in order to be effective a treatment needs to remain active within a Hive for at least 2 Brood cycles. (56 days) 

How beeks achieve this is up to them

 


 

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3 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Its been my experience that with the possible exception of Formic Acid, in order to be effective a treatment needs to remain active within a Hive for at least 2 Brood cycles. (56 days) 

How beeks achieve this is up to them

 


 

thanks @Philbee do you achieve it by pulling out all and replacing them as Alastair has done or do you just replace the holey chewed ones

 

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11 minutes ago, fieldbee said:

thanks @Philbee do you achieve it by pulling out all and replacing them as Alastair has done or do you just replace the holey chewed ones

 

If it aint broke why fix it?

 

Edited by Philbee
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After 4 weeks I checked mine ones last weekend and I replaced 98% of the staples. They were chewed and were falling down. I put the bits of "old" staples on the top of the frames hoping the bees will remove them from the hive(so they will get in touch with the OA and spread it more).

No wash here and no visual sign of varroa or virus.

 

The hives in the full sun are doing very good(some swarm cells - but I made the split so it is all good).

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Chewing in my hives has been minimal this season, there has been some chewing but nothing like last seasons ferocious activity..

and Theyve now hit the swarming switch.. this off / on, wet /hot weather hasn’t helped me much..

i have scraped buckets of exposed drone brood from between the 2 brood boxes as I split them into singles.. I’ll be honest, I’ve seen 6 mites in one hives scrapings other than that it’s all beautiful white and healthy. 

 

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I should add to my comment.  Four weeks absolute minimum.  They can last way longer.

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21 minutes ago, CraBee said:

I should add to my comment.  Four weeks absolute minimum.  They can last way longer.

The current trial which is an extension of the Autumn efficacy trial is aimed at establishing the effective lifespan of a Spring Staple.
The Autumn part of the trial demonstrated the Autumn lifespan but spring needs to be officially appraised also.
I suspect the results will just confirm what is already known.

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Perhaps the answer is in one of the research papers Alastair provided "OAD is one of the most important organic acids used for the control of V. destructor. It is
indispensable but must be dosed precisely and applied as seldom as possible to prevent sublethal damages which eventually lead to the loss of bees. Long disposition in the bee hive can cause accumulation of the acid and therefore induce further damage."  Perhaps this is the reason there are some losses rather than the bees have an unhealthy disposition. 

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8 hours ago, BJC said:

Perhaps the answer is in one of the research papers Alastair provided "OAD is one of the most important organic acids used for the control of V. destructor. It is
indispensable but must be dosed precisely and applied as seldom as possible to prevent sublethal damages which eventually lead to the loss of bees. Long disposition in the bee hive can cause accumulation of the acid and therefore induce further damage."  Perhaps this is the reason there are some losses rather than the bees have an unhealthy disposition. 

I would have to disagree with this.
Field trials demonstrate that Bees are remarkably tolerant of topical applications of OA / GL.

One NZ Hive has been dosed with approx 0.6kg OA and 0.9kg GL annually for more than two years and is the best Hive in the trial group.
This isnt to suggest that  OA/GL should be considered some sort of tonic but it does mean that its dosage rates are not critical within reasonable parameters.

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12 minutes ago, Philbee said:

I would have to disagree with this.
Field trials demonstrate that Bees are remarkably tolerant of topical applications of OA / GL.

One NZ Hive has been dosed with approx 0.6kg OA and 0.9kg GL annually for more than two years and is the best Hive in the trial group.
This isnt to suggest that  OA/GL should be considered some sort of tonic but it does mean that its dosage rates are not critical within reasonable parameters.

The paper refers to oxalic dribble which is a fundamentally different approach.

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Another example that comes to mind, but not one that I would recommend trying.
A 3 frame over winter nuc in a 10 frame box 

This hive was not a dwindler, it was just a poor doer, one that hadn't expanded through late summer as I would have expected and went into winter as 3 or 4 frames and came out as 2- 3  frames more or less.

 

A Mate called me and said that OA/GL had caused some of his overwintered Nucs to dump dead bees out front which I thought was unusual so I put a massive dose in the above Nuc

Thats 30 g OA and 45g GL

If any nuc was going to repeat my mates results it should have been that one.

 

It dropped 6 dead Bees and grew out into a very solid Hive that was later killed in another trial with an overdose of spilt sugar syrup that caused the floor to fill with syrup and a  robbing frenzy. (leaky 2 frame feeder).

 

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2 hours ago, yesbut said:

The paper refers to oxalic dribble which is a fundamentally different approach.

Understand all that but included in their findings where the impacts of OA ingestion.     I thought it was food for thought and I have used the staples as recommended in 14 hives and they  are in great condition right now, 11 out of 14  hadn't chewed the staples.   

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2 hours ago, BJC said:

Understand all that but included in their findings where the impacts of OA ingestion.     I thought it was food for thought and I have used the staples as recommended in 14 hives and they  are in great condition right now, 11 out of 14  hadn't chewed the staples.   

I think I’ve seen one chewed staple this spring , and it’s only a bit of the side . I keep moving them to the extremities of the brood so perhaps they feel no desire to remove them since I’m moving them with expanding brood 

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2 hours ago, BJC said:

impacts of OA ingestion

maybe a typo there.
The way I see it a dribble with Sugar Syrup and OA is likely to be both ingested and also deliver a topical dose  a strip is inclined to deliver just a topical dose ???

When the Bees remove a staple, id assume they use their Mandibles and try and avoid ingesting the OA/GL.

 

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One thing that @bjc referred to was a build up of OA in the hive (in wax).  I guess @philbee that you're / we're not all that sure what the effect of that is - apart from the fact you've got hives that have been dosed with OA/Gl for 3 ish years and there is no obvious negative effect?  

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3 hours ago, CraBee said:

One thing that @bjc referred to was a build up of OA in the hive (in wax).  I guess @philbee that you're / we're not all that sure what the effect of that is - apart from the fact you've got hives that have been dosed with OA/Gl for 3 ish years and there is no obvious negative effect?  

I have some sites that are without a doubt isolated to the extent that they can be considered beyond the effects of outside drift.
These sites are valuable and reliable for making comparisons.

As it happens there is one hive in one of these sites that was 4 boxes of Bees in September despite being ridiculously overdosed for coming up 3 yrs.
There are two possible conclusions to be made from this.

Either its an indestructible super Hive or OA / GL will not effect a good hive over a 3 year period even at very high does.

 

Ive often wondered if a very good Hive that we may see from time to time nowadays is really just an example of what a typical Beehive should be?
In other words, are many of our current hives actually severely compromised by layers of pathogens?  
 

I should add that is extremely unusual for me to move a site or add hives to a remote site

Late edit

Or compromised by layers of external stressors 

Edited by Philbee
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12 hours ago, Philbee said:

it does mean that its dosage rates are not critical within reasonable parameters


this concept is similar to chemotherapy in that it isn’t an exact science. Patients reaction to the drugs are also different and hives might be the same. Our observations as beekeepers are critical and discussion here certainly help with identifying what is going on. 

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@Alastair has reported that all spring staples are now being pulled out on his rounds . There are no varroa in treated hives now so this makes sense . 

 

With the info , I’ve stopped adding new staples with expanding brood , but I am still moving existing staples with brood growth . There is no longer one staple leg down each seam now though , so I guess this marks the point of a slight change in my management ... again . Many of my hives now have brood in four 3/4 boxes as I lift brood up and put new frames in to draw . 

 

Sometime in the next 4 weeks I’ll be putting QE on and putting older brood frames above to collect honey , then cycle out for scraping down . At that time , all staples will be removed until mid February when the honey comes off . 

94AD380E-2A63-4358-9E9F-EE121A888B33.jpeg

Edited by M4tt
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Course i'm just a beginner at this, but M4tt i don't think there is a lot of bee traffic over those strips, me, I'd feel better with them moved in a bit.

 

Others more knowledgeable than i may comment with better info though.

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@M4tt

 would you put more strips in in late summer after the flow ?

Varroa numbers build up more during summer with brood production I think .

 

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