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Oxalic and glycerine

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4 minutes ago, Stoney said:

any negative effects observed following a dribble treatment

Ive not seen negative effects after a dribble, and nothing positive either .

I did not find it effective at killing mites 

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Hi Stoney I've never used oxalic dribble. But some years back when i was experimenting with oxalic vapour I got a shotgun brood pattern when i overdosed hives with a lot of open nectar in the broodnest. That was after several weeks of finding combs of eggs but never any larvae.

 

I did some research and found that oxalic acid is very toxic to larvae just emerged from the egg if fed to them even in very low doses. OA dribble has sugar and some necessarily is licked up by the bees and ends up in the food supply. Just one dribble per year is not normally enough to cause a problem, but a study done in England found that hives dribbled twice in autumn had 30% less brood next spring than colonies that had no dribble.

Edited by Alastair
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19 minutes ago, Alastair said:

dribbled twice in autumn had 30% less brood next spring than colonies that had no dribble.

What size Hives?
What size and concentration of dose?

What climate? (did queen shut down or lay through winter)

What age Queen?

What treatment history of Hives?

How many Hives?

What sugar concentration of syrup?

etc..

There is currently a Scientific Study going on that started last April and will run until November and now that you have mentioned shotgun brood we will be looking out for it.
However prior to the trial there has been a few years of general use that hasnt demonstrated a pattern of shotgun Brood pattern at any time.
I can imagine that Stoney, like me is currently scratching his head on this one.
BTW, like me hes been doing it a while.
 

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32 minutes ago, Philbee said:

What size Hives?
What size and concentration of dose?

What climate? (did queen shut down or lay through winter)

What age Queen?

What treatment history of Hives?

How many Hives?

What sugar concentration of syrup?

etc..
 

 

Sorry Phil I do not have a link to the study I refer to, but here is a link to another that got similar results. I'll let you read it for yourself, most of your questions are answered.

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/289347839_Indirect_effects_of_oxalic_acid_administered_by_trickling_method_on_honey_bee_brood

Edited by Alastair

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8 hours ago, Alastair said:

 

Sorry Phil I do not have a link to the study I refer to, but here is a link to another that got similar results. I'll let you read it for yourself, most of your questions are answered.

 

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/289347839_Indirect_effects_of_oxalic_acid_administered_by_trickling_method_on_honey_bee_brood

Why would anyone put OA in syrup?

We have had this same discussion a few years ago and decided it wasn't a good idea .

Edited by Philbee
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3 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Why would anyone feed OA in syrup?

We have had this same discussion a few years ago.

Common commercial practice in Nth america for years I believe. Not so much "feed" as pour over the top.

Edited by yesbut
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6 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Why would anyone feed OA in syrup?

We have had this same discussion a few years ago.

 

That's how dribble is done, and why I wouldn't do it.

 

However seems people are getting hung up about spotty brood, when that was not my original question.

 

I'm seeing spotty brood in OA treated hives and not in bayvarol treated hives. That's a fact, and I don't need to debate or question it on a forum. My question was if OA is in the food, would that have a beneficial effect on pathogens?

Edited by Alastair
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35 minutes ago, Alastair said:

would that have a beneficial effect on pathogens?

No one has claimed either way

IMO possible for some pathogens but thats just a guess.

Your experience is unique relative to mine in that this is the first time your Hives have had oa/gl.

There is a very isolated Hive out in the back blocks that has had 600g of OA and 900g GL annually for coming up 3 years.
That is non stop exposure.
Last count a month ago  it had 18 good frames of Brood.
I take from this that in the probable absents of excessive pathogen loads and in that Hive at least,  OA is unlikely to indiscriminately kill larvae via ingestion.
The most serious issue IMO and experience is physical contact which is a well documented certainty for killing brood.

Edited by Philbee
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1 hour ago, Alastair said:

My question was if OA is in the food, would that have a beneficial effect on pathogens?

 

By 'beneficial', you mean to the bees Alastair ? :14_relaxed:

 

Yes, oxalic acid has been shown to knock down Nosema ceranae from memory . . . will have to find the paper. Not sure how it was administered to the bees but  it memory again says via syrup (dribble). I also seem to recall a paper that compared dribble vs vapourisation.

Edited by JohnF
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16 minutes ago, JohnF said:

By 'beneficial', you mean to the bees Alastair ? :14_relaxed:

 

LOL, yes. Beneficial to the bees, harmful to the pathogen. 😉

 

16 minutes ago, JohnF said:

Yes, oxalic acid has been shown to knock down Nosema ceranae from memory . . . will have to find the paper. Not sure how it was administered to the bees but  it memory again says via syrup (dribble). I also seem to recall a paper that compared dribble vs vapourisation.

 

Thank you, that is the answer I was looking for. No need to find the paper John, if you read it, good enough for me. Re the method of administration, almost certainly if the study authors wanted the OA to be ingested, it would have been administered via a dribble, or perhaps mixed in syrup.

 

To me, it seemed reasonable that some ingested OA could be a negative for some pathogens, but of course i didn't know that.

 

And the reason for my question in the first place, is that the most reasonable assumption why my hives are showing shotgun brood in the OA treated hives, is that for whatever reason, some of the OA is getting into the larval food supply. So I'm wondering if this could also have an upside, in terms of reduced pathogens.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Alastair

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Excellent Thanks John. The abstract of the first study discusses the matter but does not get into the effect of varroa on the claimed mortality, but the rest of the study is behind a paywall. But the other study has some very useful and specific information. A well done study, nice work finding it. 👍

 

And there you go Phil, despite the objections, I have found a positive for you. I raised the matter because if myself and others are going to be using OA, we may as well also understand it.

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Thanks for that Alastair.

A significant number of Beeks comment that in there observations hives or bees seem to adapt to OA/GL and show less and less mortality as time and subsequent applications go by.
 

That apparent adaption is possibly not so must an adaption but more likely a change in Hive environment by one means or another.
That means is possibly by a reduction in pathogen loading via culling of sick/old Bees or possibly via some direct effect of OA/GL on the various pathogens or possibly a mix of Both and or other means.

 

I can say that the Beeks who have had the best results from OA/GL are those who had the best hives and Hive practices to start with and also those who have stuck with it when faced with Hives that have taken a decent hit.

 

I look at some of these Beeks and think, "Fortune favors the bold"

 

 

 

 

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Yes, if hives improve over time with exposure to OA, that might also favour the idea of a beneficial effect on pathogen levels.

 

It would be interesting to see statistically, if there is an effect on AFB infestations. Course such a study would have to be done across thousands of hives, or more probably, tens of thousands.

Edited by Alastair
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7 hours ago, Philbee said:

Thanks for that Alastair.

A significant number of Beeks comment that in there observations hives or bees seem to adapt to OA/GL and show less and less mortality as time and subsequent applications go by.
 

That apparent adaption is possibly not so must an adaption but more likely a change in Hive environment by one means or another.
That means is possibly by a reduction in pathogen loading via culling of sick/old Bees or possibly via some direct effect of OA/GL on the various pathogens or possibly a mix of Both and or other means.

 

I can say that the Beeks who have had the best results from OA/GL are those who had the best hives and Hive practices to start with and also those who have stuck with it when faced with Hives that have taken a decent hit.

 

I look at some of these Beeks and think, "Fortune favors the bold"

 

 

 

 

True that Phil,

My hives got a massive knock on the second round and they're back bubbling, the damp sites were the worst hit but most have come right now. 

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1 hour ago, Maru Hoani said:

True that Phil,

My hives got a massive knock on the second round and they're back bubbling, the damp sites were the worst hit but most have come right now. 

I think damp spot hives do get more hit more with strips .

It certainly was that for mine .

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10 hours ago, JohnF said:

Hi John, at conference Dr Sammy mentioned a report/study about the longer effects of OX on bees can you recall that study.

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13 hours ago, Dennis Crowley said:

Hi John, at conference Dr Sammy mentioned a report/study about the longer effects of OX on bees can you recall that study.

 

Was that at the 'latest research' talk? Otherwise I might have missed that one . . .I don't recall him talking about it. But here's another one:

https://www.google.co.nz/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwib447myZzlAhXGXCsKHWD1DegQFjADegQIAhAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.mdpi.com%2F2075-4450%2F8%2F3%2F84%2Fpdf&usg=AOvVaw2GSmCGgEDhSNLtGr-6RgQP

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We used a ox/syrup dribble a couple of winters ago. 

It was recommended and mixed by a more experienced Beek. I just believed him and didn’t question how or why. 

He did warn us to only do it  once a season as the crystals are hard on the bee gut. 

We didn’t see any adverse effects to the bee health and our varroa numbers were way down. I’d consider using it again.

 

 

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First day out today removing the second 4 week strips and the spotty brood appears to have pretty much sorted itself out.

The spotty brood was first apparent when I was removing the first 4 weekly round of strips and placing the second round, and of several hundred hives the majority had it, but the bayvaroled hives were fine. 

Anyhow today, 4 weeks later, all good. 

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2 minutes ago, Alastair said:

First day out today removing the second 4 week strips and the spotty brood appears to have pretty much sorted itself out.

The spotty brood was first apparent when I was removing the first 4 weekly round of strips and placing the second round, and of several hundred hives the majority had it, but the bayvaroled hives were fine. 

Anyhow today, 4 weeks later, all good. 

Removing ?  Why.?

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They haven't been chewed out much, I want the bees to get their nests back together how they want them.

 

I think the varroa are dealt to, in all the drone brood that got broken apart today I did not see one varroa. So, leaving the strips in is unnecessary.

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1 minute ago, Alastair said:

They haven't been chewed out much, I want the bees to get their nests back together how they want them.

 

I think the varroa are dealt to, in all the drone brood that got broken apart today I did not see one varroa. So, leaving the strips in is unnecessary.

Good answer 😊. Thanks 

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38 minutes ago, Alastair said:

They haven't been chewed out much, I want the bees to get their nests back together how they want them.

 

I think the varroa are dealt to, in all the drone brood that got broken apart today I did not see one varroa. So, leaving the strips in is unnecessary.

Hi @Alastair I think @Phillbee recommends the strips in for 2 brood cycles.  Will you be doing an alcohol wash or sticky board drop to see what you varroa levels are. 

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4 minutes ago, fieldbee said:

Hi @Alastair I think @Phillbee recommends the strips in for 2 brood cycles.  Will you be doing an alcohol wash or sticky board drop to see what you varroa levels are. 

They’ve been in 8 weeks . 

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