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Oxalic and glycerine

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2 hours ago, Ted said:

I see multiple eggs in Cells pretty regularly in mating nucs that have simply dwindled away.  A vigorous queen but just not enough workers to keep up with her.  In my mind I see it as her getting frustrated and wanting to lay.

do you think the hive controls the queens laying and when the bees think there are not enough of them to keep the brood warm and healthy they interfere with the queens laying.

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this is well over my head, but if all the affected hives were in a 1080 drop zone and we all accept that bees are insects and 1080 is (also) an insecticide  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_fluoroacetate  then it is reasonable to say that a sub-lethal dose could affect queens and hives regardless of whether it is in any of the capped honey. This is not about the honey. So I think it is quite reasonable to keep 1080 on the list of possible causes. Whether it comes via aphids or anything else or foraging salts directly from baits remains to be seen and makes it very tricky to prove. Question is whether every single poor hive was in a drop zone?

 

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I'm working on it ..... but we are in the dark zone now.

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2 hours ago, kaihoka said:

do you think the hive controls the queens laying and when the bees think there are not enough of them to keep the brood warm and healthy they interfere with the queens laying.

I think generally the queens laying is controlled by the feeding levels provided to her by the workers however in the situation @jamesc photographed the colony has completely collapsed (for whatever reason) but the queen is still viable and is simply bursting with eggs and can’t hold them all in.  If she was caged and introduced to a couple of frames of brood and bees she would probably flourish.

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17 hours ago, jamesc said:

Good point .

Back to square one.

Mind you ... many of the hives have just diminished and died in the last three weeks. Little slabs of brood,  struggling nicely for the time of  year, and then bees on the floor , a box of honey, dead and gone. Praise the Lord were'nt frigging breeding cows , eh.

I've been having a think about that photo and the multiple eggs.

Two thoughts .... the queen looks quite new, and sometimes new queens spit out lotsa eggs before they settle into the routine.

The second thought was that multiple eggs are a sign of laying workers ....

 

I wonder if something in the Acid, the glycerine or the staples is making the queens sterile  ? 

 

I don't think it will be laying workers though because there is a Queen in the hive...maybe if quite a few Queens from one site are failing you could put it down to poor matings / poor weather when they mated.

 

Like you I have some good sites and some not so good sites and for the most part I put it down to poor nutrition be it pollen or nectar over Winter.

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Talk about a tangent....

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@jamesc, how much OA went into each box? It would be interesting to have a dosage, though it would seem unlikely that yours was meaningfully different to anyone else’s, but at least it would be a data point.

I ODed a hive and it’s obliterated the mites, but it’s a long way off being healthy.

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really need to see what was in the results that MPI are holding back,

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Lol

I have a particular hive that Ive O deed continuously in the extreme for almost 3 yrs now.
For two winters in a row it has wintered as 5 boxes.
In the next month it will get O deed in the extreme again and then around Christmas it will get the same, 

One day I might get lucky and actually ..... get it into 2 boxes. 

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I do'nt think it has any thing to do with 1080 or honey dew, we have had quite a few lose's like james, but our hives have been know where around 1080 or honey dew, my bet it has to do with the queen

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34 minutes ago, cBank said:

@jamesc, how much OA went into each box? It would be interesting to have a dosage, though it would seem unlikely that yours was meaningfully different to anyone else’s, but at least it would be a data point.

I ODed a hive and it’s obliterated the mites, but it’s a long way off being healthy.

Four staples in the brood ..... mixed according to the recipe .....

 

The dead hive issue is  a bit like a murder investigation ... a who dunnit ..... there is no doubt we can make them up again, but's it's all just Mahe Mahe and we need to be learning to work smarter, not harder. I said a few summers ago that our primary objective was to learn how to keep the bees alive, and when we learnt that the honey would come naturally, or not.

We still don't know how to keep the critters alive ..... and that is not progress.

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Philbee asked a couple of weeks back how much solution my strips hold , weighed some this morning an average of 26 grams per strip , 4 strips per brood box.

 

 

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my Observations 

In damp or hives under 6 frames of bees most of our queens are cowering in a corner as far away as she can get from the staples. Often away from the stores too, the hives seem a bit disorganised and very little brood is being raised.

 

These hives are going backward in bee numbers, I’ve taken the remaining overwintering staples out and given them a feedbee Pattie and rearranged the brood and food. 

 

Strong hives have chewed out the staples or the queen has just layed right under them 

i wonder about the reaction between the oxalic and dampness, the damp strips seem to have a rotten egg smell to them.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, nikki watts said:

my Observations 

In damp or hives under 6 frames of bees most of our queens are cowering in a corner as far away as she can get from the staples. Often away from the stores too, the hives seem a bit disorganised and very little brood is being raised.

 

 

These 6 frame colonies.. how much brood do they have compared to how many staples they’re sharing a box with..? 

If they are clean of mites I would pull them out and let them come away and build up. 

I think we should be more aware of mite loads and treat accordingly.. 

if they are below the critical mass then treat them with an alternative until they have increased in mass.. and can once again handle the acid. 

Edited by Trevor Gillbanks
fixed quote.
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2 hours ago, Stoney said:

 

These 6 frame colonies.. how much brood do they have compared to how many staples they’re sharing a box with..? 

If they are clean of mites I would pull them out and let them come away and build up. 

I think we should be more aware of mite loads and treat accordingly.. 

if they are below the critical mass then treat them with an alternative until they have increased in mass.. and can once again handle the acid. 

Very little brood. I have taken the staples out. Will check a couple today, 1 week without staples and see if there is a marked difference. 

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6 hours ago, nikki watts said:

my Observations 

In damp or hives under 6 frames of bees most of our queens are cowering in a corner as far away as she can get from the staples. Often away from the stores too, the hives seem a bit disorganised and very little brood is being raised.

 

These hives are going backward in bee numbers, I’ve taken the remaining overwintering staples out and given them a feedbee Pattie and rearranged the brood and food. 

 

Strong hives have chewed out the staples or the queen has just layed right under them 

i wonder about the reaction between the oxalic and dampness, the damp strips seem to have a rotten egg smell to them.

 

 

 

 

Thats exactly my observations too .

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I know some people have had success with Oa/Gly over Winter, but I'm not so confident it is the best treatment for that time of year.  To me at least Ox/Gly seems to work best when bee numbers are strong, and when it is applied outside the wet/damp Winter period.  So anytime from Sept to April. 

 

I think Apivar is quite a good option over Winter given it is slow acting and lasts the longest out of all the treatments....and the hives get a break from the acid and more acid building up in the wax.  

 

Through this Spring I've been running OA/Gly staples and Bayverol (in separate hives not together) and both are doing a good job.  I like Bayverol it has a quick knock-down and has always worked really well for me, but for my next couple of treatments and through Autumn I'll use Ox/Gly staples almost exclusively.  It is hard to go past them for effectiveness and at about 1/3 of the cost of the other treatments...

Edited by CraBee
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1 hour ago, CraBee said:

 

 

I think Apivar is quite a good option over Winter given it is slow acting and lasts the longest out of all the treatments....and the hives get a break from the acid and more acid building up in the wax.  

 

What I am seeing is different results in different situations . 

Synthetics are a really good way to lose hives here, and an expensive way . 

The two occasions I have used both of the mainstream ones have been extremely disappointing 

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Ive just been out and about

It was great to see my big Oh Deed hive and do a mite count on it.
Almost 3 yrs of 3 Oh Deeds per year of 20 paper laminates each time.
Basically the Hive has swum in the stuff, possibly  for longer than any hive in recorded history.
One might expect a basket case 
This summer Honey and wax samples will be sent to a lab in Germany for residue tests.
As it happens I removed a box mid winter when I strapped the hive up as stock were threatening it.

Here are some pics.
The photo of the brood is from another hive.

I dont sift through photos looking for a good one.
These two hives were the only two I opened today.
In the photo with the Brood I was very disappointed to find 1 mite in 350 bees
It ruined my perfect score so for this season

Oh deed trial 20 stp 3 yr.jpg

Oh Deed trial.jpg

spring OA hive 9 stpls.jpg

Edited by Philbee
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1 hour ago, CraBee said:

I know some people have had success with Oa/Gly over Winter, but I'm not so confident it is the best treatment for that time of year.  To me at least Ox/Gly seems to work best when bee numbers are strong, and when it is applied outside the wet/damp Winter period.  So anytime from Sept to April. 

 

I think Apivar is quite a good option over Winter given it is slow acting and lasts the longest out of all the treatments....and the hives get a break from the acid and more acid building up in the wax.  

 

Through this Spring I've been running OA/Gly staples and Bayverol (in separate hives not together) and both are doing a good job.  I like Bayverol it has a quick knock-down and has always worked really well for me, but for my next couple of treatments and through Autumn I'll use Ox/Gly staples almost exclusively.  It is hard to go past them for effectiveness and at about 1/3 of the cost of the other treatments...

I think the oxy staples are ok for a spring/summer treatment and then go back to bayverol for autumn winter treatments, this is what we will be doing

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2 minutes ago, kevin moore said:

I think the oxy staples are ok for a spring/summer treatment and then go back to bayverol for autumn winter treatments, this is what we will be doing

Whats your explanation of the above photos?

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1 hour ago, CraBee said:

I know some people have had success with Oa/Gly over Winter, but I'm not so confident it is the best treatment for that time of year.  To me at least Ox/Gly seems to work best when bee numbers are strong, and when it is applied outside the wet/damp Winter period.  So anytime from Sept to April. 

 

I think Apivar is quite a good option over Winter given it is slow acting and lasts the longest out of all the treatments....and the hives get a break from the acid and more acid building up in the wax.  

 

Through this Spring I've been running OA/Gly staples and Bayverol (in separate hives not together) and both are doing a good job.  I like Bayverol it has a quick knock-down and has always worked really well for me, but for my next couple of treatments and through Autumn I'll use Ox/Gly staples almost exclusively.  It is hard to go past them for effectiveness and at about 1/3 of the cost of the other treatments...

I found a mite bomb site today. 

About 1/3 hives with dwv bees and visable mites on the bees. 

It also had  my strongest hive to date. 

The only difference to other sites is that this one has 1 x  full depth and 1 x 3/4 brood boxes, the others 2 or 3 x 3/4.

It’s also the closest site to 2 x other beekeepers too. 🤔

Edited by nikki watts
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lots a good luck, not sure what your weather has been like over the winter, but we have had a lot of wet or cloudy days and found our strips got very damp and quite wet feeling, we had our strips in the corners by the brood, not cut across the middle like those in the pic, i have run out of ideas on these lose's it just seems so weird

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8 minutes ago, nikki watts said:

I found a mite bomb site today. 

About 1/3 hives with dwv bees and visable mites on the bees. 

Ironically it also had  my strongest hive to date. 

The only difference to other sites is that this one has 1 x  full depth and 1 x 3/4 brood boxes, the others 2 or 3 x 3/4.

It’s also the closest site to 2 x other beekeepers too. 🤔

Last Autumn in a n organised trial one site was much closer to a certain large outfit than the rest.
Its initial mite loads at day 1 were 6- 10  times  that of the Sites further away.

3 minutes ago, kevin moore said:

lots a good luck, not sure what your weather has been like over the winter, but we have had a lot of wet or cloudy days and found our strips got very damp and quite wet feeling, we had our strips in the corners by the brood, not cut across the middle like those in the pic, i have run out of ideas on these lose's it just seems so weird

Its got nothing to do with luck.

These hives are in a 2.4m pa rainfall area and this season has been very wet
Ive been at this a while now and have cracked it

What you see is how I roll

Edited by Philbee
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7 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Last Autumn in a n organised trial one site was much closer to a certain large outfit than the rest.
Its initial mite loads at day 1 were 6- 10  times  that of the Sites further away.

Its got nothing to do with luck.

These hives are in a 2.4m pa rainfall area and this season has been very wet
Ive been at this a while now and have cracked it

What you see is how I roll

were those strips put in in early autumn or refreshed during the winter

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