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Oxalic and glycerine

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10 hours ago, Bees said:

  Of my dead hives I am wondering if the older wax frames are the culprits- I figure there is residue of older treatments in the wax and that might cause some of the problems?

 

My thoughts as well, we are cycling our old frames out but often if I look into a failing hive I have two thoughts low pollen, (though not always) and excess older frames, and we know they not only hold chemicals in the wax but also diseases.  So in my mind this equates to excess stress on the bees.

Edited by fieldbee
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15 hours ago, Bees said:

I figure there is residue of older treatments in the wax and that might cause some of the problems?

 

There was discussion earlier in this thread (I can’t find it now) about Staples and strips being in at the same time, and that being a bad idea as the interactions are unknown. Residue build up in wax and Staples in a hive together would seem a similar issue.

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On 7/09/2019 at 9:48 AM, fieldbee said:

 

My thoughts as well, we are cycling our old frames out but often if I look into a failing hive I have two thoughts low pollen, (though not always) and excess older frames, and we know they not only hold chemicals in the wax but also diseases.  So in my mind this equates to excess stress on the bees.

I don't know enough to conclude anything, but I agree with the feelings about older frames. I think it is notable that in the UK they refresh combs by essentially sterlising them with acetic acid (erm why don't we do that here?) and that Mark Goodwin had some work running where they sterilised empty dry brood comb by heating in a hotter than normal warm room (did that work ever get finished?). Are others in NZ routinely refreshing their frames in some manner?

 

The implication being that the nosemas and/or others can be reduced or eliminated. There is also comment sometimes made that beekeeping is easier in the first two years then it gets harder. This too implies the build up of diseases. There is often comment that brood frames need to be cycled out at the 4 or 5 year mark. Anyway, all these anecdotes point the same way; same as your quote above. The one good thing I use old black brood comb for (empty and dry) is to help anchor a newly caught swarm, in a foundationless box, but I'm wondering now if that is actually a bit dumb if I'm giving diseases to young bees. (?). This does end up being only one comb with all the rest freshly drawn and I've not noticed any bad affects.

 

On a different note, I've not used OAG and rarely used synthetic strips in swarms because these days I don't have any synthetic strips. But I have given them an OAV (Oxalic Acid Vapour) treatment; fairly early on before they have brood. In a broodless situation it is about the only time I think OAV is worthwhile.

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I always put my swarms onto new foundation only. Never had one abscond.

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13 minutes ago, yesbut said:

I always put my swarms onto new foundation only. Never had one abscond.

you're right and even foundation is optional.. However, I should explain that several times in last few seasons we've had a call where a swarm has already gone into a house. Where we have got there within 24 hours we set up a box with a single brood comb, I have often poured invert/syrup into the cells of the comb as a kind of lure and house warming present. Each time we've managed to get the swarm out of the house and into the box. On one of those the home owner caught it on video where the whole swarm did an exit out of the house and then flew around back to the house and hived itself in the box. Hilarious really. They posted this video on our facebook page, so there is real proof of this, but I dont' have the skill to easily put it on here if that is even possible. Still it must be pretty attractive if they'll abandon a nice spot in a house in order to go in the box. While we have done it several times, I'm doubtful it would work after they've been there more than 48hrs. Nice to help people and bees in this way with zero failures and actually quite low level of effort required. Anyway, this is why the brood comb thing came into being, just depends on what is to hand and surplus.

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12 minutes ago, ChrisM said:

you're right and even foundation is optional.. However, I should explain that several times in last few seasons we've had a call where a swarm has already gone into a house. Where we have got there within 24 hours we set up a box with a single brood comb, I have often poured invert/syrup into the cells of the comb as a kind of lure and house warming present. Each time we've managed to get the swarm out of the house and into the box. On one of those the home owner caught it on video where the whole swarm did an exit out of the house and then flew around back to the house and hived itself in the box. Hilarious really. They posted this video on our facebook page, so there is real proof of this, but I dont' have the skill to easily put it on here if that is even possible. Still it must be pretty attractive if they'll abandon a nice spot in a house in order to go in the box. While we have done it several times, I'm doubtful it would work after they've been there more than 48hrs. Nice to help people and bees in this way with zero failures and actually quite low level of effort required. Anyway, this is why the brood comb thing came into being, just depends on what is to hand and surplus.

Good that this system works and saves either a cut-out or destroy situation, but generally with swarms from unknown origins, we were taught to always use new frames and wax, so any AFB spores in the honey they were carrying would be used up drawing out wax, and safely out of harms way.

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16 hours ago, Sailabee said:

Good that this system works and saves either a cut-out or destroy situation, but generally with swarms from unknown origins, we were taught to always use new frames and wax, so any AFB spores in the honey they were carrying would be used up drawing out wax, and safely out of harms way.

 

Yes, I was taught the same thing. But surely this begs the question that if old wax frames need to be cycled out because they carry and spread disease... then the AFB that is embedded in this same wax would also be spread, not contained. 

On 7/09/2019 at 8:22 AM, kaihoka said:

I got some staples made by someone who knew what they were doing and they did ok for me .

I am reluctant to make my own now though.

Reading about the unpredictable results .

 

Making up the brew is no different to baking. Just concentrate while following the recipe. If you get distracted your scones won’t rise...

 

I’ve been brewing up my OA/GL for a couple of years and it works great. 

 

But you do have a point with this observation. The colony failures some people are seeing could easily be human error. 

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2 hours ago, CHCHPaul said:

 

. The colony failures some people are seeing could easily be human error. 

 

Not for us and at least 3 others that we know of.

 

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After lunch I'm going to have a look at one of my hives that is spewing dead bees...

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1 hour ago, yesbut said:

After lunch I'm going to have a look at one of my hives that is spewing dead bees...

 

Be interesting to hear the update 

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Well it looks like mostly my fault. The Q isn't the best one in the world, and there has been a bit of DWV, but I think the cause of the losses is a down to my OA towels

basically isolating a bottom box full of bees who've run out of tucker and starved out. Q etc in the boxes above have brood and stores but I don't think they've been too good at getting out to fly. I don't think I'm cultivating anything evil. 

Sorry about all the "thinking" 😄

And...the pile of dead dying bees has a significant showing of mites, so my winter oa regime seems to have been a fizzer, this hive anyway. The other isn't displaying any stress.

(Yet, touch wood)

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6 hours ago, CHCHPaul said:

Making up the brew is no different to baking. Just concentrate while following the recipe. If you get distracted your scones won’t rise...

if you had ever tried my scones you would not be so optimistic about my cooking abilities LOL.

my three hives are a mixed bag and they were all treated the same.

so far i am holding my nerve and sticking to staples.

i will see how they look after the migrant beeks arrive. 

but i may be more a problem for them than they to me with my treatment regime.

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I've dusted off my toilet paper cardboard core idea. Soaked for a few minutes in water, they delaminate into two strips each of which could be folded in half lengthwise and hung between frames by a bend in one end. Each dry core weighs exactly 45gms. They soak up (hot) oa solution really well but also tend to disintegrate. I'll see what they're like when they cool down. I am about to soak a heap of them in water, unroll them, then set them out to dry, they might be easier to handle when oa-ed up once already unrolled. There's certainly no issue about them not holding oa.

 

Just thinking again, each strip of card is just on 300mm long, so they could be stapled together at one end to facilitate hanging...

Just thinking again, they could also be re-relaminated using the kid's stapler...

An unravelled toilet roll core ..

 

20190909_155213 (Medium).jpg

And why am I bothering with this you ask ? It's because I haven't been able to come across any other suitably absorbent cardboard. Free that is. And there's something appealing about recycling bogrolls.

Now folded......

 

20190910_095147 (Medium).jpg

Edited by yesbut
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My urban hives are going very well, while the rural ones are starving and are small.

No losses to varroa or their viruses.

New staples doing their job.

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@Philbee we’ve finished our second spring round on most of our hives, except for the high altitude stuff. I’ve commented before about some of the hives taking a bit of a hit when staples were introduced and we had a few come through winter looking a little “quiet”.

 

also had the usual array of winter dead outs - haven’t run the numbers, but <10%, which is good considering the state they went into winter as I had a bung leg at the time.

 

Anyway - second round complete and what is really pleasing is how the OA treated hives are taking off - very strong in many cases and we have cells coming on to start splitting shortly. They look really clean, healthy, nice bees and nothing to complain about.  Even after the shabby weather we’re just coming out of, some hives I opened today we’re a little light on food but the brood looks fantastic.

 

I’m still a fan of your staples, check your email inbox for my next order 👍🏻

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From the SNI beekeepers newsletter.

’Oxalic staples need to be replaced after a month, and the oxalic burns the pads off the feet of the bees. ‘

Care to comment @Philbee

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21 minutes ago, nikki watts said:

From the SNI beekeepers newsletter.

’Oxalic staples need to be replaced after a month, and the oxalic burns the pads off the feet of the bees. ‘

Care to comment @Philbee

Comments like that need to include specific data.
 

I will also add that the Staples are the subject of a substantial, licenced and audited trial that began on the 4th April 2019 and will continue through spring this season

Much Data has already been collected and while I cant use  that data to publicly make claims I can say that  the owners of the technology have made applications for multiple  international Patents.

The burned feet claim is interesting though

If someone has a Stereo scope they could post so photos of the burned feet

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34 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Comments like that need to include specific data.
 

I will also add that the Staples are the subject of a substantial, licenced and audited trial that began on the 4th April 2019 and will continue through spring this season

Much Data has already been collected and while I cant use  that data to publicly make claims I can say that  the owners of the technology have made applications for multiple  international Patents.

The burned feet claim is interesting though

If someone has a Stereo scope they could post so photos of the burned feetI agree not very reliable. 

That’s all that was recorded in their minutes so hopefully it’s just poorly recorded rather than poor science. 

 

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3 minutes ago, nikki watts said:

That’s all that was recorded in their minutes so hopefully it’s just poorly recorded rather than poor science. 

 

No we cant discount this info but it needs to include some data.

Im not able to make claims but if a group of Beeks suggest that Staples need to be changed at 4 weeks then I take that seriously.

I can tell you that tens of thousands of staples get changed at week 4.

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1 hour ago, nikki watts said:

From the SNI beekeepers newsletter.

’Oxalic staples need to be replaced after a month, and the oxalic burns the pads off the feet of the bees. ‘

Care to comment @Philbee

Both of these comments mean nothing in isolation . I wonder who made them and why 

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On 9/09/2019 at 3:46 PM, yesbut said:

I've dusted off my toilet paper cardboard core idea. Soaked for a few minutes in water, they delaminate into two strips each of which could be folded in half lengthwise and hung between frames by a bend in one end. Each dry core weighs exactly 45gms. They soak up (hot) oa solution really well but also tend to disintegrate. I'll see what they're like when they cool down. I am about to soak a heap of them in water, unroll them, then set them out to dry, they might be easier to handle when oa-ed up once already unrolled. There's certainly no issue about them not holding oa.

 

Just thinking again, each strip of card is just on 300mm long, so they could be stapled together at one end to facilitate hanging...

Just thinking again, they could also be re-relaminated using the kid's stapler...

An unravelled toilet roll core ..

 

20190909_155213 (Medium).jpg

And why am I bothering with this you ask ? It's because I haven't been able to come across any other suitably absorbent cardboard. Free that is. And there's something appealing about recycling bogrolls.

Now folded......

 

20190910_095147 (Medium).jpg

Yesbut there have been times where i have been caught short in the little room and had to peel the roll as well.

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11 minutes ago, Dennis Crowley said:

Yesbut there have been times where i have been caught short in the little room and had to peel the roll as well.

Holy cow you gota be joking.

Whats wrong with your sleeve or maybe even the curtain

Edited by Philbee
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2 hours ago, Philbee said:

 I can say that  the owners of the technology have made applications for multiple  international Patents.

 

You have sold it?

 

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57 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Holy cow you gota be joking.

Whats wrong with your sleeve or maybe even the curtain

Many yrs ago my mate would cut a strip off his track pants while out in the bush.. but only one leg at a time.

It was purely hilarious to see one pant leg gradually get shorter til it was shorts length before he started on the other side.. 

the looks he would get in the petrol station still makes me laugh..  

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1 hour ago, M4tt said:

Both of these comments mean nothing in isolation . I wonder who made them and why 

 

When NZ Beekeeping Inc put a day on in Ak they had a guy present about his use of oxalic acid / glycerine.  He used a cardboard like product.  Perhaps it has come from him.....

 

When the hives are busy I find that the solution from the staples is gone in about a month.  No idea about the bees feet.

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