Jump to content
ikwezinz

Oxalic and glycerine

Recommended Posts

It makes no difference to hive strength or production which way a hive faces and we did trials many years ago that proved conclusively that hives on pallets produced substantially more honey than single hives. There is also a lot less drift with pallets. I remember apiarys that had two lines of hives and they would be six high at one end and two high at the other. Even when most of our hives were still singles we found they performed better when set up in groups of four with one facing each direction.

You do see a few chilled bees on the grass outside the shady entrance  but I suspect the ones from the sunny entrance just leave home earlier and die further away. I would never go back to running single hives commercially.

Phil. I have to ask why you are even keeping bees if you're not taking the honey off, it must have some effect on your varoa trials as leaving the honey crop on is not a real world situation for most beekeepers. I would not be happy but I can still make money at five dollars per kilo.

  • Like 2
  • Agree 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, john berry said:

It makes no difference to hive strength or production which way a hive faces and we did trials many years ago that proved conclusively that hives on pallets produced substantially more honey than single hives. There is also a lot less drift with pallets. I remember apiarys that had two lines of hives and they would be six high at one end and two high at the other. Even when most of our hives were still singles we found they performed better when set up in groups of four with one facing each direction.

You do see a few chilled bees on the grass outside the shady entrance  but I suspect the ones from the sunny entrance just leave home earlier and die further away. I would never go back to running single hives commercially.

Phil. I have to ask why you are even keeping bees if you're not taking the honey off, it must have some effect on your varoa trials as leaving the honey crop on is not a real world situation for most beekeepers. I would not be happy but I can still make money at five dollars per kilo.

 

With regard leaving honey on, its about principle to me

I resent being in a position where all the ticket clippers get to make their margin and the poor old beek gets whats left even worse a bill'.

Id rather not work hard to make them money, getting non myself.

What really peeved me off was to see one extraction outfit put their prices up as Honey went down.

As for your comment about why do I keep Bees, Im sure you didnt mean that in a bad way but if you did just consider for a moment that those Bees have contributed to this industry in ways that a few tonne of Honey never will.
So, I have my own reasons for Beekeeping and thankfully I dont need to sell Honey but I do need my Bees.

Also,
Palletized Hives in the context of this discussion is about Varroa not production.
Whatever studies might have been done in the past are not necessarily relevant in today's environment  because today's Varroa environment is different  from the past.
Lots of things are different.


 

Edited by Philbee
  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Philbee said:

 thankfully I dont need to sell Honey but I do need my Bees.

 

What's going to happen when they start getting this seasons crop?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, Alastair said:

 

What's going to happen when they start getting this seasons crop?

Ill make a decision on that later in August once Ive done a proper spring round.
Ive got a couple of mates in Pollination that could take heavy splits or it might be a crappy Spring, We will see.

It isnt overly productive country so its probably not as serious as it might be elsewhere.

Edited by Philbee
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Phil. I was just curious as to why you didn't take your honey . All my income is honey.I was hoping to catch up with you at conference but it didn't happen. Not all packers are ticket clippers and some really do care about their suppliers but there are a lot out there now that don't.

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, john berry said:

All my income is honey.I

So you found a satisfactory buyer this year ?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, john berry said:

yes

Total disclosure here is noted.

  • Haha 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, john berry said:

Phil. I was just curious as to why you didn't take your honey . All my income is honey.I was hoping to catch up with you at conference but it didn't happen. Not all packers are ticket clippers and some really do care about their suppliers but there are a lot out there now that don't.

I didnt take it off because the cost of doing so at all points was prohibitive given that it might sit in a shed for 12 months or more and be worth $4.00

and I simply dont want to contribute to keeping extraction outfits  in business that are in my view predatory.

Its a bit like the renting trap where the rent is more than enough to finance the renters own house.
Id rather mark it, store it wrapped and feed it back, then one day get my own extraction shed or at least find one that I like to deal with.

 

I am not a socialist but see the benefit in a group owned premises

 

Edited by Philbee
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Philbee said:

I didnt take it off because the cost of doing so at all points was prohibitive given that it might sit in a shed for 12 months or more and be worth $4.00

and I simply dont want to contribute to keeping extraction outfits  in business that are in my view predatory.

Its a bit like the renting trap where the rent is more than enough to finance the renters own house.
Id rather mark it, store it wrapped and feed it back, then one day get my own extraction shed or at least find one that I like to deal with.

 

I am not a socialist but see the benefit in a group owned premises

 

 

Surely though there is a market for extraction and ultimately you go with what supplier works best for you.  It may seem costly but most plants only run for part of the year.

If you want control, as I did, then you put together you own system but there is a lot of time, money etc in that and all the regulatory stuff with audits etc cost, nonsense, and more cost.

When honey is $5/kg not $10/kg then extraction costs take a chunk of that $5, and throw in harvest costs, time and hassle, wanting to concentrate on other things, and doing way with having to feed the hives back up to get them through Winter, I see where you are coming from.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, CraBee said:

 

Surely though there is a market for extraction and ultimately you go with what supplier works best for you.  It may seem costly but most plants only run for part of the year.

If you want control, as I did, then you put together you own system but there is a lot of time, money etc in that and all the regulatory stuff with audits etc cost, nonsense, and more cost.

When honey is $5/kg not $10/kg then extraction costs take a chunk of that $5, and throw in harvest costs, time and hassle, wanting to concentrate on other things, and doing way with having to feed the hives back up to get them through Winter, I see where you are coming from.

Yes extraction at  20% of gross income based on a 22kg net per box is not sustainable.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Time to get out .... eh!?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have endless years experience extracting honey and could design a beautiful little honey house for myself but dealing with the regulatory side of it these days leaves me completely cold. I don't pay someone else to do my extracting to get away from the work I do it to get away from the bumf.

  • Like 3
  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, jamesc said:

Time to get out .... eh!?

No its time for Beeks to say that even although ####e runs downhill there comes a time when it must push back up the pipe

1 minute ago, john berry said:

I have endless years experience extracting honey and could design a beautiful little honey house for myself but dealing with the regulatory side of it these days leaves me completely cold. I don't pay someone else to do my extracting to get away from the work I do it to get away from the bumf.

In the future there may be a syndicated  extraction sheds that  run 24/7 

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

It’s frustrating that many here seem to want the same thing, seem to have the ability to do it but are separated so far geographically that it isn’t practical. 

 

Edit: I saw photos of a really excellent mobile extraction plant up north. All it needed was clean water. That said, I assume it’s maximum throughput would be crushed by relatively small setup in a shed.

Edited by cBank

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, cBank said:

It’s frustrating that many here seem to want the same thing, seem to have the ability to do it but are separated so far geographically that it isn’t practical. 

 

Edit: I saw photos of a really excellent mobile extraction plant up north. All it needed was clean water. That said, I assume it’s maximum throughput would be crushed by relatively small setup in a shed.

I guess it would be a matter of scale and design in regard the throughput. Do you know how the mobile unit dealt with waste water and other discharge @cBank?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

6 hours ago, Ali said:

I guess it would be a matter of scale and design in regard the throughput. Do you know how the mobile unit dealt with waste water and other discharge @cBank?

 

No, I don’t. The owner mentioned to me that he had a hell of a time with proving the quality of the water - unsure if he was bring water with him or if it was due to using water he was obtaining onsite, which certainly sounds harder.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, cBank said:

 

 

No, I don’t. The owner mentioned to me that he had a hell of a time with proving the quality of the water - unsure if he was bring water with him or if it was due to using water he was obtaining onsite, which certainly sounds harder.

 

 

The water on-site needs to meeting the NZ drinking water standards.  To achieve that with a rural water supply you need to install an approved UHF filtering system.  The water is then tested and certified. If not quite sure how that is done with a mobile system as the water source would presumably change and in theory would need testing for each source.

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Aren't there water supplier companies?

Keep a closed system of 2000-3000L and refill by the supplier.

Not sure about the pricing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Would also need a massive mobile generator as most of the machinery in a commercial size plant is 3 phase, and really sucks the juice through, even using gas to heat the wash down water.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Sailabee said:

Would also need a massive mobile generator as most of the machinery in a commercial size plant is 3 phase, and really sucks the juice through, even using gas to heat the wash down water.

Most extracting equipment is made with single ph motors as equipment manufacturers know that many beekeepers live in the boondocks where 3 ph may not be available. Some gear is 3 ph but usually 230 volt 3 ph so can still be run through vsd from single ph supply. Most extraction gear uses motors 1.5 kw or less. Of course with a few things going total power usage can add up but is usually  able to be run from a typical domestic supply.

  • Good Info 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guys - any chance you could take the whole mobile extraction discussion to another thread? 😁

  • Agree 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So a week ago I put some OA strips in single box hives that hadn’t been treated since last spring - only left them because I wanted to know what would happen with winter OA strips.  All were 10 frame, healthy looking (!) and with good foodstores. Winter has been pretty mild for us so far so they’re actively foraging.

 

4 of Philbees wide strips non EP well drained, 40% OA, per hive.  All on hive doc bases.  No pre or post treatment mite wash.

 

5 hives look perfect, quite impressed, the 6th one photos are below.

 

first pic shows dead bees out the front. It was so bad after only a couple days I cracked the whole front of the hive open to make sure they could still get in/out.

 

second pic shows dead bees on the base - many adults, plus some larvae pulled.

 

third pic shows hive put together after cleaning the base and active foragers returning.

 

hive remains ok but has clearly had a large shock.  No sign of disease (incl DWV interestingly) when the strips were put in. I didn’t pull the frames apart today, but suspect the hive has reduced from probably 7-8 frames of adult bees to 4-5, so I wouldnt be surprised if there was some dead brood in there from chill.

 

assessing the hive, I’m comfortable it will recover ok and push along into spring.  I’ve carried out a whole lot of different scenarios with these strips over the past year or so, a lot of it pushing the envelope and outside recommendation, just so I can get a true handle on them. I’m pretty confident in then now, I think there is more comfort zone with them than people realise, although I can see hobbiests getting the odd shock when they get it wrong and have a result like this one...

 

from now on I’m running these strips, with FA treatments held in reserve. No synthetic strips. Kudos to Phil for all the work to date. Cheers

 

 

10 minutes ago, Pinnacle said:

So a week ago I put some OA strips in single box hives that hadn’t been treated since last spring - only left them because I wanted to know what would happen with winter OA strips.  All were 10 frame, healthy looking (!) and with good foodstores. Winter has been pretty mild for us so far so they’re actively foraging.

 

4 of Philbees wide strips non EP well drained, 40% OA, per hive.  All on hive doc bases.  No pre or post treatment mite wash.

 

5 hives look perfect, quite impressed, the 6th one photos are below.

 

first pic shows dead bees out the front. It was so bad after only a couple days I cracked the whole front of the hive open to make sure they could still get in/out.

 

second pic shows dead bees on the base - many adults, plus some larvae pulled.

 

third pic shows hive put together after cleaning the base and active foragers returning.

 

hive remains ok but has clearly had a large shock.  No sign of disease (incl DWV interestingly) when the strips were put in. I didn’t pull the frames apart today, but suspect the hive has reduced from probably 7-8 frames of adult bees to 4-5, so I wouldnt be surprised if there was some dead brood in there from chill.

 

assessing the hive, I’m comfortable it will recover ok and push along into spring.  I’ve carried out a whole lot of different scenarios with these strips over the past year or so, a lot of it pushing the envelope and outside recommendation, just so I can get a true handle on them. I’m pretty confident in then now, I think there is more comfort zone with them than people realise, although I can see hobbiests getting the odd shock when they get it wrong and have a result like this one...

 

from now on I’m running these strips, with FA treatments held in reserve. No synthetic strips. Kudos to Phil for all the work to date. Cheers

 

 

Pics 1 and 280173243_2019-07-2813_05_35.thumb.jpg.70e3bfc1b76c51c34dd1fed02f3a9b3b.jpg1560825890_2019-07-2813_05_55.thumb.jpg.f06f35b0d03cb2a100de07f3b7bed2bf.jpg1560825890_2019-07-2813_05_55.thumb.jpg.f06f35b0d03cb2a100de07f3b7bed2bf.jpg

 

Pic 3 - have a close look you may pick up something (I just did!)

 

 

 

2019-07-28 13.07.53.jpg

@Philbee do you supply strips in cardboard cartons? The pails are good but I think I’ve got enough of them now, if we could get the strips in cartons we can just keep reusing the pails we have.

 

cheers

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I noticed quite a few dead bees after my second round of staples, some have none others heaps. Must be quite a few weak bees in the hives this time of the year

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I also noticed this effect last spring.  Gave me a fright seeing dead and crawly bees out front.  No ideas why, we did discuss maybe bees with some virus load getting hit hard with the oxalic. 

We also talked about the possibility that the younger bees get hit harder than the older ones, soft exoskelton. So a hive with a large amount of younger bees emerging at once may be more susceptible to an oxalic hit.  

  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...