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Oxalic and glycerine

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So what is the solution? I have taken up ant farming at one of my sites. 

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I started a thread in the ants as per @Philbee‘s suggestion. I crossed the streams. Never cross the streams.

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@nikki watts, I would bomb those hives with Fa, yes it will knock the socks out of them but you need to get those mites out asap, if you have other healthy hives around I would be looking at those for a donor once you have the mites gone. Staples and synthetic are not going to cut it at this stage, 

12 hours ago, Philbee said:

Second point of interest was one that was put to me on the side from an educated overseas Varroa researcher.
He was concerned that Glycerine was Toxic to Bees and instead advocated for use of OA/ Syrup Dribble.

 

Either we are a long way ahead of him or he is ahead of us 
 

 

Interesting, did he know about the oa/gly, before this? Or was that just a opinion he had on the spot, did he understand the point of the gly treatment?, oa/syrup as we all know works but only has a limited kill time the point of the glycerin is to extend the kill.

 

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1 hour ago, tony said:

@nikki watts, I would bomb those hives with Fa, yes it will knock the socks out of them but you need to get those mites out asap, if you have other healthy hives around I would be looking at those for a donor once you have the mites gone. Staples and synthetic are not going to cut it at this stage, 

Interesting, did he know about the oa/gly, before this? Or was that just a opinion he had on the spot, did he understand the point of the gly treatment?, oa/syrup as we all know works but only has a limited kill time the point of the glycerin is to extend the kill.

 

Its hard to know what space he was in as there was a Language barrier aggravated by my deafness.

It seemed that his information and knowledge suggested that the initial kill of Bees seen in some Hives was due to a toxic effect of the  Glycerine

It was pointed out to him that this immediate die off sometimes seem from Staples was not replicable.
I believe that he was genuinely puzzled and a little surprised that we use Glycerine.
In turn I was genuinely puzzled that  he recommended a OA/ Syrup dribble.
Trev did point out to me that what we consider normal is way out left field for others 

 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Philbee said:

Its hard to know what space he was in as there was a Language barrier aggravated by my deafness.

It seemed that his information and knowledge suggested that the initial kill of Bees seen in some Hives was due to a toxic effect of the  Glycerine

It was pointed out to him that this immediate die off sometimes seem from Staples was not replicable.
I believe that he was genuinely puzzled and a little surprised that we use Glycerine.
In turn I was genuinely puzzled that  he recommended a OA/ Syrup dribble.
Trev did point out to me that what we consider normal is way out left field for others 

 

If glycerine was toxic to bees , surely the initial die off would continue all the way through till the hive had died off ?

If the idea that the glycerine is toxic and only causes an initial due off , then that suggests the glycerine is quickly ‘removed ‘ from the staples , or the remaining bees develop a rather quick tolerance. 

Neither of those two suggestions make sense to me .

 

Perhaps you need to do a trial and see if you can negatively impact some  hives with just glycerine staples to confirm  that theory or rule it out 

Edited by M4tt
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10 hours ago, flash4cash said:

I am hearing through an AP2 friend of mine that there are people that can not afford varroa treatment this autumn so are just going with out.  

 

Very silly management.

Sell few hives for a quarter of the price or less and there is the money for the treatment.

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1 minute ago, Kiwi Bee said:

Sell few hives for a quarter of the price or less and there is the money for the treatment.

you offering to buy them? Might be a struggle to get buyers for sufficient hivesregardless of asking price.

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7 minutes ago, Kiwi Bee said:

 

Very silly management.

Sell few hives for a quarter of the price or less and there is the money for the treatment.

I agree.  Unfortunately not everyone makes the best decisions under pressure. It easy to become overwhelmed by the whole situation they find themselves in. 

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28 minutes ago, M4tt said:

Perhaps you need to do a trial and see if you can negatively impact some  hives with just glycerine staples to confirm  that theory or rule it out 

He claimed that such a trial had been done and proved the theory correct.

He is a guest of the SNI group so we should try and get him to clarify his points as he is no fool.
 

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8 minutes ago, flash4cash said:

I agree.  Unfortunately not everyone makes the best decisions under pressure. It easy to become overwhelmed by the whole situation they find themselves in. 

 

Problem is if they don’t treat they won’t have viable hives come spring. 

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20 minutes ago, Kiwi Bee said:

 

Very silly management.

Sell few hives for a quarter of the price or less and there is the money for the treatment.

One of the issues here is that by the time people get to the point where there is no money for treatments its highly likely there is no money for other things either, such as fuel, food, rent, debt etc so it becomes a matter of priorities.
Dont suggest that the Bees come first because the fact is they dont.

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4 minutes ago, Philbee said:

He claimed that such a trial had been done and proved the theory correct.

He is a guest of the SNI group so we should try and get him to clarify his points as he is no fool.
 

 

Surely if it was toxic the bees would be dead outside every hive not just the odd few ?

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12 hours ago, Philbee said:

Also Nikki

When were the Hives last treated and what with?

Apivar in mid sept. Will check the hives these ones over wintered with but were moved to a different location to see if they have the same level of mites. 

2 hours ago, tony said:

@nikki watts, I would bomb those hives with Fa, yes it will knock the socks out of them but you need to get those mites out asap, if you have other healthy hives around I would be looking at those for a donor once you have the mites gone. Staples and synthetic are not going to cut it at this stage, 

 

 

I have been tossing up about using Formic instead of bayvarol. (Used apivar in spring)

The hives would come back faster without the sick brood and bees. 

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9 minutes ago, nikki watts said:

Apivar in mid sept.

That's a long time.

My view is that 3 or more treatments per season will become accepted as best practice 
 

19 minutes ago, frazzledfozzle said:

 

Surely if it was toxic the bees would be dead outside every hive not just the odd few ?

I quietly put it to him that there were xxxxxx thousand of these things used season so the feedback was robust.

He was genuinely mystified

28 minutes ago, frazzledfozzle said:

 

Surely if it was toxic the bees would be dead outside every hive not just the odd few ?

Im sure that if there was an issue with GL then @randyoliver would have seen it.
 

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I know that some users in Chile will put 8 oxalic stips per brood box for hives under extreme pressure from mites and virus, they reckon that pulls them back , drops mites quick but takes a while to clear viruses, they are using the solid fibre board.

 

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16 minutes ago, olbe said:

I know that some users in Chile will put 8 oxalic stips per brood box for hives under extreme pressure from mites and virus, they reckon that pulls them back , drops mites quick but takes a while to clear viruses, they are using the solid fibre board.

 

Whats important I guess is how much solution is in each strip and at what strength
As it happens NZ Beeks are using 4 staples per brood box which is equal to 8 strips of 10g solution that consists of 4g OA/ 6g GL

Also what is relevant is the physical properties of the absorbent material.

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7 hours ago, olbe said:

I know that some users in Chile will put 8 oxalic stips per brood box for hives under extreme pressure from mites and virus, they reckon that pulls them back , drops mites quick but takes a while to clear viruses, they are using the solid fibre board.

 

Is there research that oa gets rid of viruses?, I recieved the last results from the bee pathogen program couple days ago and I still have some very high virus loads well at least out of the group in particular dwv, and bqcv, bee weight was good at 18gm, and no mites in my samples these hives have been treated with oa/gly, not just that but it is part of my treatment. May be it needs long term exposure? I am definitely interested in what lowers virus levels, probably another topic there.

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9 hours ago, Philbee said:

That's a long time.

My view is that 3 or more treatments per season will become accepted as best practice. 

 

Yep, it must be too long for that area. This extended summer is going to make winter harder to manage the colonies. Heaps of bees to feed, and the queens haven’t slowed down yet. 

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2 hours ago, tony said:

Is there research that oa gets rid of viruses?, I recieved the last results from the bee pathogen program couple days ago and I still have some very high virus loads well at least out of the group in particular dwv, and bqcv, bee weight was good at 18gm, and no mites in my samples these hives have been treated with oa/gly, not just that but it is part of my treatment. May be it needs long term exposure? I am definitely interested in what lowers virus levels, probably another topic there.

Id say that any treatment that kills sick Bees will lower the Viral load.
That may be one of the significant differences between Organic Acids and Synthetics.

Possibly Synthetics are so well designed that they kill far fewer sick Bees.

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3 hours ago, tony said:

Is there research that oa gets rid of viruses?, I recieved the last results from the bee pathogen program couple days ago and I still have some very high virus loads well at least out of the group in particular dwv, and bqcv, bee weight was good at 18gm, and no mites in my samples these hives have been treated with oa/gly, not just that but it is part of my treatment. May be it needs long term exposure? I am definitely interested in what lowers virus levels, probably another topic there.

There is a mushroom extract that can lower virus loads in bees. Sorry can not tell you more than that. Read it somewhere

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12 hours ago, Philbee said:

Trev did point out to me that what we consider normal is way out left field for others 

 

The pair of you do seem a bit strange

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9 hours ago, yesbut said:

The pair of you do seem a bit strange

I have to agree.  It would seem we have a threesome with a pink cat in the mix.

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10 hours ago, Philbee said:

Id say that any treatment that kills sick Bees will lower the Viral load.
That may be one of the significant differences between Organic Acids and Synthetics.

Possibly Synthetics are so well designed that they kill far fewer sick Bees.

I'm not so sure, you maybe right as I'm no data analysis, but my results aren't showing that, my results are showing strong healthy bees with no varroa at all present in the last two sample rounds,  but some of the viruses are still high, I'm on a 10% frame rotation on this site and  on a side note its been the same hives tested never moved same boxs gear etc apart from normal replacement of a broken box etc, since sampling started I have used acids as treatment, plus synthetic, thymol  and even drone culling. But I can't seem to shake some of the viruses, is it genetics? I have heaps of questions about this is there any one else on here that was part of the pathogen program us love to talk.

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13 minutes ago, tony said:

But I can't seem to shake some of the viruses, is it genetics? I have heaps of questions about this is there any one else on here that was part of the pathogen program us love to talk.

Is this @JohnF  ?

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5 minutes ago, yesbut said:

Is this @JohnF  ?

Yea I'd start a new topic on this but if I'm the only one of the 59 in the program on here theres not much point haha, I hate talking to myself.

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