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Oxalic and glycerine

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, tony said:

Sorry phill, What a load of poop, this is like saying how long is a piece of cotton, are your cotton pickers getting paid fairly what about the energy used to make the tape do you know what that footprint is? Making suggestions like this is  well I can't even find words.

 I use cardboard it cost 10 cents per strip does it kill mites yes, do I know where it comes from no but I can find out I use enough that the company that cuts them knows the supplier well and I'm not the only bk they doing it for, is the cardboard recyclable I'm pretty sure, is the packaging recyclable wait a minute yes in fact I could probably cut the boxs up and use them to. 

Thinking about it I would say that the cardboard we are getting has batch numbers and could probably be traced back also not much stuff these days isn't unless your hiding something.

You seem upset about something Tony?

Edited by Philbee
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Lol, nah phill I'm not upset, but I will call anyone out if I think there information is misleading, have another read of what you wrote, don't get me wrong your doing a good job with your strips and informing nz beekeepers about results etc, but remember it's not just your strips that are working, if like me there are others out there that can find a cheaper alternative and it works what makes that inferior? Recycled paper could cut it perfectly fine, in fact if you go back far enough I was doing just that with recycled newspaper which I still think has merit but at my stage in life and while beekeeping is challenging at the best of times its easier to get something else bought in, but I'm not about to say it doesn't cut it, when in fact it could be even better than anything we using a present and cheaper and more sustainable. Personally if we going to start bragging about sustainability then not only are we opening a can of worms but we better have all the facts

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On 9/03/2019 at 1:07 PM, Philbee said:

 

I commend your courage Paul

Few on this form could even imagine the what you and James put on the line this season.
  

Awe what about me?  You dropped of the thins and I asked what is the the success rate?

 

Philbee  replys " not sure you are the 1st customer, tell me how they go" 

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6 hours ago, flash4cash said:

Awe what about me?  

 

Ummm.. don’t panic flash I’m pretty sure he’s referring to scale. 

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11 hours ago, tony said:

 

 I use cardboard it cost 10 cents per strip does it kill mites yes,

 

Hi Tony,  I tried cardboard (got them via maleme street- same supplier?) 

Thought them pretty average- I trialed a site, 8 cards per hive and now full of those devils.  Feel that the card i used was a bit thick? Like the ox wasn't been distributed very well, maybe held in the card too long?  I can still taste the ox months later.  The gib have a larger surface area, and possibly release the ox much quicker (probably why you see bee death at first) 

 You still interested in some Formic?  

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Stoney said:

Ummm.. don’t panic flash I’m pretty sure he’s referring to scale. 

Probably.  My theory is that if you put 100% of your hives up for treatment you are going ball deep regardless of scale. 

 

I also love that fact he drove 2 hours from taupo to drop me off 10 strips..twice 

19 minutes ago, Gino de Graaf said:

 

Hi Tony,  I tried cardboard (got them via maleme street- same supplier?) 

Thought them pretty average- I trialed a site, 8 cards per hive and now full of those devils.  Feel that the card i used was a bit thick? Like the ox wasn't been distributed very well, maybe held in the card too long?  I can still taste the ox months later.  The gib have a larger surface area, and possibly release the ox much quicker (probably why you see bee death at first) 

 You still interested in some Formic?  

I reckon they worked it was all I used last season for Autumn and did not even do a spring treatment. 

Edited by flash4cash
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1 hour ago, Gino de Graaf said:

 

Hi Tony,  I tried cardboard (got them via maleme street- same supplier?) 

Thought them pretty average- I trialed a site, 8 cards per hive and now full of those devils.  Feel that the card i used was a bit thick? Like the ox wasn't been distributed very well, maybe held in the card too long?  I can still taste the ox months later.  The gib have a larger surface area, and possibly release the ox much quicker (probably why you see bee death at first) 

 You still interested in some Formic?  

Hey Gino, nah different supplier, what I do know is different carboard does act differently so there is something in that, but I'm not the best person to preach/skite about oa/gly as that's not the only product I use, the gib tape could well be the better product, all I know is the cardboard works for me and costs me less than a dollar to treat my hives for one treatment even if I had to follow with another it would be under two dollars that's attractive for me. But as always cheap isn't always the answer it has to work. What I have learnt over a decade of using different products is you can never judge a product on one or two sessions use, there are so many variables quantity, weather hive strength, mite loads before starting etc, etc. All I know is with my current pest management system I dont lose hives anymore, there's still issues for sure but from being on the bee pathogen program I have a better understanding of what's going on, for example you can have no mites in your hives but still have dwv, and others issues, so then you need other management strategies, 

Re, formic yea I still keen on it if it's not being used, I was up in tauranga other week getting my strips apparently 20000 cardboard strips takes up full deck on truck and is quite heavy so was no chance I was gonna get anything else on, but yep if it's not going to be used I'll grab it at somestage.

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3 hours ago, tony said:

Hey Gino, nah different supplier, what I do know is different carboard does act differently so there is something in that, but I'm not the best person to preach/skite about oa/gly as that's not the only product I use, the gib tape could well be the better product, all I know is the cardboard works for me and costs me less than a dollar to treat my hives for one treatment even if I had to follow with another it would be under two dollars that's attractive for me. But as always cheap isn't always the answer it has to work. What I have learnt over a decade of using different products is you can never judge a product on one or two sessions use, there are so many variables quantity, weather hive strength, mite loads before starting etc, etc. All I know is with my current pest management system I dont lose hives anymore, there's still issues for sure but from being on the bee pathogen program I have a better understanding of what's going on, for example you can have no mites in your hives but still have dwv, and others issues, so then you need other management strategies, 

Re, formic yea I still keen on it if it's not being used, I was up in tauranga other week getting my strips apparently 20000 cardboard strips takes up full deck on truck and is quite heavy so was no chance I was gonna get anything else on, but yep if it's not going to be used I'll grab it at somestage.

Yeah, cardboard is cheap.  Maybe your card is different.  I think mine stuff was called 'greyboard'. And agree, season on season differences.  Though, interestingly, some sites are always high mite breeders. 

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Ok so I did a bit of homework the board I use is 100% post consumer recycled waste it is made to strict iso14001 enviromental managment system and is ph neutral.

 

Ok so I did a bit of homework the board I use is 100% post consumer recycled waste it is made to strict iso14001 enviromental managment system and is ph neutral.

And is sourced and made in Finland and/or sweeden

 

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On 12/03/2019 at 10:44 PM, tony said:

Lol, nah phill I'm not upset, but I will call anyone out if I think there information is misleading, have another read of what you wrote, don't get me wrong your doing a good job with your strips and informing nz beekeepers about results etc, but remember it's not just your strips that are working, if like me there are others out there that can find a cheaper alternative and it works what makes that inferior? Recycled paper could cut it perfectly fine, in fact if you go back far enough I was doing just that with recycled newspaper which I still think has merit but at my stage in life and while beekeeping is challenging at the best of times its easier to get something else bought in, but I'm not about to say it doesn't cut it, when in fact it could be even better than anything we using a present and cheaper and more sustainable. Personally if we going to start bragging about sustainability then not only are we opening a can of worms but we better have all the facts

There is nothing misleading about what Im saying.
As for your cheap 10 cent strips, that is cheap, but to put it into perspective a 4 layer gib Staple has 7 cents worth of Tape in it and Im sure those 4 layers could be run through a sewing machine for a few cents per Staple.
So apples for apples the cardboard you use is not really cheap by comparison.
When one goes to the trouble of distributing them  in Pails with freight included etc the the price creeps  up and its important to consider that when your cheap cardboard strip turn up at your place they are not packed in pails and delivered to you.
I also think that your use of the term bragging is more to do with the way you interpret what is being said rather than what is intended.

The Paper tape staple has been an underrepresented success and that is partly to do with the way it has been shared freely in this forum.
One of the reasons the cardboard strip is obscure is because for years it has been secret squirrel, benefiting just a few.

You can have the last word if you want, I wont be getting into an online debate with you


 

Underrepresented in line 10 should be "unprecedented" 

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There's no secrete about the cardboard heaps of bee keepers are using it and that's my point in my opinion recycled paper does cut it,  the company that's cutting them  reckons its a good sideline for their business. The reason I don't really talk about is because well I don't need to its not my product and I'm just a bee keeper getting on with bee keeping. We started using cardboard while you where developing your strip, if you had developed your strip  few months earlier I would probably be using yours also, but yours weren't around yet and the cardboard was what we started with,  it seems to work ok and haven't needed to change.

As far as price goes you have a point If i was to start sending cardboard around the country i would probably have to add a few cents per strip i haven't worked it out theres about 800 in a box which is about 8 kg not sure what freight is on that.

What i was trying to say about the bragging about tractability is if we start that it will become expected, more complications i think we dont need, a bit like mpi saying to china/world yes we can prove we have full tractability on our hives and yes we can define what manuka is, look what happened  now we have to brand our boxs another cost, not that i mind to much, but what's that achieved more traceability?, and as far as the promise of a new standard manuka well its basically done more harm than good, so sometimes i think its best to carry on doing what your doing, imagine if we still just used umf and mgo as our standard,

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Whats becoming clear is that the staple gives the hive one hell of a hit during the first week and that kills sick Bees.

The challenge has been to lengthen the staples life so it is now 4 layers and next season it will probably have an internal hemp option.

Hemp is very absorbent but slow on the uptake and release.

Its also easy to get traceable Hemp
 

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For the last couple of seasons I have not seen the dead bee thing on any concerning level even using formic no alarming queen losses that I can contribute to treatments of any kind, personally I think it has to do with strength, placement and quantity put in at certian times of the year. 

The only change I wanted out of the cardboard was to have it longer originally we used it like a strip, but getting it to stay put was a mission so we went to staples as was everyone but then we needed more length, the minor challenge in that was getting it so there was zero wastage out of a sheet. As far as longevity of cardboard it will last months in a hive in fact we generally have to remove at least half of it when we go to apply our next treatment,  however if it's not soaked properly the bees will remove it fast,  they really don't like to eat it if it has product in it, once the ingredients are warn then if it's in the way it's gone, obviously there are some exceptions to that some hives for what ever reason behave differently but on average this is what happens. 

I wonder when we will have biodegradable frames infused with a slow oa solution?

Has anyone tried dipping frames in the solution and seeing if the wax holds enough product for a brood round or two?

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@tonyare keen to write a bit about your FA treatment in a different thread? Strengt, application?

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2 hours ago, Kiwi Bee said:

@tonyare keen to write a bit about your FA treatment in a different thread? Strengt, application?

Yea I got no problem with that just give me a bit of time I think I might make it like a integrated pest managment topic.

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13 hours ago, Philbee said:

Whats becoming clear is that the staple gives the hive one hell of a hit during the first week and that kills sick Bees.

The challenge has been to lengthen the staples life so it is now 4 layers and next season it will probably have an internal hemp option.

Hemp is very absorbent but slow on the uptake and release.

Its also easy to get traceable Hemp
 

 

Yes I agree lengthening staple life would be the thing I'd see as being most beneficial, while being able to keep total OA / box down at approx 18g/box.  A thicker staple / product but with less solution in it?  

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Hi @Philbee,

 

I have just put another round of your staples into my trial yards. I haven't got around to doing mite counts yet, but have not noticed any mites in brood I have uncapped, and brood and bees in General are looking good although as expected brood starting to dwindle back as queens go off the lay.

As of now, considering feedback from customers and your own usage of the staples, can you confirm what the 'go to' staple is that you and people are trending towards, how many staples per hive you are recommending to insert and current cost per staple. I'm just trying to get my head around what the total cost per hive the oxalic staple system would cost over the season.

Cheers

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29 minutes ago, MackAp said:

Hi @Philbee,

 

I have just put another round of your staples into my trial yards. I haven't got around to doing mite counts yet, but have not noticed any mites in brood I have uncapped, and brood and bees in General are looking good although as expected brood starting to dwindle back as queens go off the lay.

As of now, considering feedback from customers and your own usage of the staples, can you confirm what the 'go to' staple is that you and people are trending towards, how many staples per hive you are recommending to insert and current cost per staple. I'm just trying to get my head around what the total cost per hive the oxalic staple system would cost over the season.

Cheers

The trends are difficult to judge as I tend to try and influence beeks decisions based on my own experience and the experience of some of the larger users
At this time of season and particularly in light of the current economic environment I steer beeks toward the basic Quad Row Wide, Non edge protected  Staple as it will do the job for 80% of the cost of the EPW. (Edge protected Wide)

Come spring the only Staple to use IMO would be the 4 layer EPW.
6 layer Narrows for Nucs and those who want to prevent brood damage but Id use 5 or 6 narrows in a full sized  Brood box.

At this time of year with re invasion an issue its important to keep staples up to the hives all the way through till the bees stop flying, robbing etc.

 In terms of cost per season I would say that if a beek choose to do 3 treatments a season and replace the staples at week 4 of each treatment period which is twice what I do but a good example of a maximum treatment then each hive would cost between 13 .2and 16.6 dollars per season to treat a hive.
My current regime is 3 lots of 4 Staples per hive for the season at a minimum of 55 cents per staple


 

2 hours ago, CraBee said:

 

Yes I agree lengthening staple life would be the thing I'd see as being most beneficial, while being able to keep total OA / box down at approx 18g/box.  A thicker staple / product but with less solution in it?  

Increasing the strength / volume of the solution in a staple also increases the lifespan of the staple in most hives.

By adding a hemp layer to the staple Im expecting that the Staple will remain viable for longer.
I doubt the bees will have much success removing Hemp
 

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So Phil can you clarify that a little bit for me so are you saying if you do 3 treatments, and follow that up with another in 4 weeks on each treatment? So 6 applications?

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1 hour ago, tony said:

So Phil can you clarify that a little bit for me so are you saying if you do 3 treatments, and follow that up with another in 4 weeks on each treatment? So 6 applications?

What Im saying is that if you chose to max out the staple system you could use a 3 treatments per season program and replace the staples monthly for each total treatment period of 2 months except Autumn/ winter where the Autumn staples remain in until spring

This is in theory only and not what I recommend as it is prudent to rotate treatments but the principle is the same for individual treatment periods.

At this stage it is also up to the Beekeeper to work out a system that suits them.

For example I dont replace staples at week 4 unless they are seriously chewed and view Spring as the most aggressive period for the bees to chew the Staples.
The degree of chewing is also related to spring build up timing so a small expanding spring hive will chew less than a 2 box spring hive thats ready to swarm.

An experience Beek said to me a while back that Beeks need to use sound beekeeping judgement when using Staples 

 

 

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21 hours ago, Philbee said:

As for your cheap 10 cent strips, that is cheap, but to put it into perspective a 4 layer gib Staple has 7 cents worth of Tape in it and Im sure those 4 layers could be run through a sewing machine for a few cents per Staple.

 

That's about 10 cents on a Gib staple? Cost wise. 

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1 minute ago, Gino de Graaf said:

 

That's about 10 cents on a Gib staple? Cost wise. 

write the numbers down and show me how you come up with that

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2 minutes ago, Philbee said:

write the numbers down and show me how you come up with that

Uhmm, I just read your message. 

but to put it into perspective a 4 layer gib Staple has 7 cents worth of Tape in it and Im sure those 4 layers could be run through a sewing machine for a few cents per Staple.

?? 

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20 minutes ago, Gino de Graaf said:

Uhmm, I just read your message. 

but to put it into perspective a 4 layer gib Staple has 7 cents worth of Tape in it and Im sure those 4 layers could be run through a sewing machine for a few cents per Staple.

?? 

Your suggestion is way out of context with regard the original price/cost comparison of the cardboard versus the staple.

for example, you have purchased staples from me so you will know that the delivery is included in the staple price as is the Pail.

These two costs are just two of a number. 

The original comparison did not include these other costs for obvious reasons "apples for apples"

This is as far down this line of inquiry that Im prepared to go with you

 

 

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Inspection of some home hives in the “slightly cooler” evening.

Bees are starting to remove staples that were placed 2 weeks ago. Some hives have had a population drop, but that isn’t of concern as new brood is there to replace numbers. 

It was interesting to see how some queens have interacted with the strips  placed through the frames centrally. Some hives have filled up one end on both sides with honey after brood has emerged and the queen is laying on the back half of the frame (in all cases at the back not the entrance end). Other hives a mixture of new brood under the staples and right across the frame or the portion where the strip sits is empty, similar to what an Apivar or Bayvarol strip would do.

Just observations and interesting to see how each colony interacts with the staples.

I didn’t take any more pics as I was caging queens and had heaps of propolis on my fingers.

 

6E81F0DD-0DBA-49C8-8C79-FC4522080489.jpeg

39256D0C-8687-4094-8AB6-B704FBA6AC28.jpeg

B129FA75-7129-496B-AB76-F2BD67DCEF15.jpeg

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