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Oxalic and glycerine

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1 minute ago, Dennis Crowley said:

What have people found with ox staples and queen cells please?

 

Seems to be fine most of the time, I have been using them in mating nucs.

 

I have noticed though on a few occasions a cell that has emerged, but then no sign of the VQ.  I'm not certain, speculating really, but it may be that the new VQ is getting exposed to the OA

if the staple is a little wet and this is effecting/killing her.  I'm just ensuring/checking the staples are fully dry now.

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1 hour ago, Dennis Crowley said:

next post should be page 100:IMG_0380:

Shudda Gone to Specsavers.  We are already at 100

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7 hours ago, Josh said:

I think it would be useful to know weight OA/GLY per strip centimetre (standard EP & narrow EP) and Randy Oliver has already given us recommendation of total OA dose/FD hive. So then mathematically you can adjust for any given volume and strip strategy. 

 

The maths always indicated to me that my strips needed to be on the shorter side of things to keep the dose down. I *think* that people are putting in 4 staples per brood box (but maybe 7 total if they have a double brood setup). This works out at 4x 23g (FD staples weigh about 30g, 9g being the paper and thread). That’s 92g total and in a 40% Oa mix, it’s 36g Oa. For a 3/4, 78% of that is 28g.

 

I may be reading in the wrong place, but hasn’t Randy gone from using 3x towels with 12g Oa in each FD (2017) to 18-20g Oa per box last season?

 

I’m definitely using more than that, have I missed something? He suggests that varroa don’t need much to die.

 

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/extended-release-oxalic-acid-progress-report-4/

 

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3 minutes ago, cBank said:

 

The maths always indicated to me that my strips needed to be on the shorter side of things to keep the dose down. I *think* that people are putting in 4 staples per brood box (but maybe 7 total if they have a double brood setup). This works out at 4x 23g (FD staples weigh about 30g, 9g being the paper and thread). That’s 92g total and in a 40% Oa mix, it’s 36g Oa. For a 3/4, 78% of that is 28g.

 

I may be reading in the wrong place, but hasn’t Randy gone from using 3x towels with 12g Oa in each FD (2017) to 18-20g Oa per box last season?

 

I’m definitely using more than that, have I missed something? He suggests that varroa don’t need much to die.

 

http://scientificbeekeeping.com/extended-release-oxalic-acid-progress-report-4/

 

5 staples in the bottom box , 4 in the second is how I use them 

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2 minutes ago, M4tt said:

5 staples in the bottom box , 4 in the second is how I use them 

4 per box for me

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4 minutes ago, M4tt said:

5 staples in the bottom box , 4 in the second is how I use them 

 

4 minutes ago, Gabor said:

4 per box for me

Is that a 40% mix? If so, 46g Oa per box if 5 strips, 37g if 4?

It’s very clearly not a straight comparison with Randy and the towels.

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3 minutes ago, cBank said:

 

Is that a 40% mix? If so, 46g Oa per box if 5 strips, 37g if 4?

It’s very clearly not a straight comparison with Randy and the towels.

Yes , it’s 40%

As for the maths , I’d have no idea .

The idea is to get a leg of staples down most of the seams of bees.

As/if/when the central staples get chewed out , I’ll move  the outside staples in as the bees cluster grows smaller heading in and through winter 

Edited by M4tt
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4 minutes ago, cBank said:

 

Is that a 40% mix? If so, 46g Oa per box if 5 strips, 37g if 4?

It’s very clearly not a straight comparison with Randy and the towels.

35%OA in the mix

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Me too, 35%OA

The staples are in the mixture from sunday and I will use them in few days.

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Just now, Kiwi Bee said:

Me too, 35%OA

The staples are in the mixture from sunday and I will use them in few days.

my staples were in the stuff for 24 hours and squeezed out before application. they seemed wet tho 

heaps of bees are out the hive now just hanging around :) probably the hot weather and the fresh staples were a tad too much for the faint hearted ones :)

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I doubt you could do too much damage with excess moisture in this weather. It is brutal. The only thing hotter than bee keeping that I’ve been able to find is splitting wood. 

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I put my mixture in warm, and invert the container regularly. They're soaked within a few hours and wring out excess. But I am only doing very small quantities. (7 last batch to treat merged swarm nucs etc).

 

I suspect when I do my winter 50/50 staples I will need to leave them a lot longer.

 

 

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Hi All,

I don't have time to follow every chat group, but I got a notification about this one.  I'm interested in your experiences with OA/gly in NZ, so please feel free to contact me directly at randy@randyoliver.com.

 

>From a practical point of view the Hive is very tolerant of high doses of OA/GL that do not go as far as to wet the Bees

 

That is also my impression.  For a strong colony, 9 g total OA in glycerin on towels did not give great mite control.  But neither did 40 g (4 strips) of the Argentine formula in double-deep hives.  But 80 g total did when applied in hanging strips.  But the mite control was no better than 18 g OA delivered on towels with the right OA: gly ratio.

 

It's clear that there is a substantial margin of safety for OA  between what is needed to kill mites (very little), and the amount that will cause adverse effects to the colony.  What appears to be most important is how quickly the OA is delivered to the bees' bodies (via the "wetting" of the bees by the glycerin).  And that appears to be a function of the ratio of OA to glycerin.

 

As Philbee said, the key balance to reach is enough delivery of OA over time, but not too much.  With the Argentine 1:2 ratio (1 g of OA to 2 mL of glycerin), the acid appears to get distributed too quickly, causing jittery bees and sometimes brood kill.  This does not appear to be a problem with the 1:1 ratio.

 

Since I've found that 18 g of OA/hive results in very high efficacy in my climate, I see no need to apply a greater quantity.  The thing to keep in mind is that some OA will remain in the cellulose substrate (the staple, strip, or towel), so that amount does not count towards the 18 distributed grams.

 

 

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12 hours ago, Dennis Crowley said:

What have people found with ox staples and queen cells please?

 

Dennis I trialed the staples this year in 60 cell finishers .

cells were fine, no problem with emergence and the same percentages of mated queens as we usually expect.

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I still have original staples sitting in OA solution from Philbee,35% if i remember right....i remove from bucket,cut to guessed length,scrape excess liquid with hivetool and place into double 3/4 brood boxes...4 in bottom,3 in top.

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Just a note and i dont like to jump ahead of the insect discussion so the sooner the thread goes back there the better.

A big player called me a week ago to chat

He was interested in comparing prices of Apivar against Staples etc

Im cagey about getting too deep into these types of discussions.

He maintained, and Im in no position to debate the issue, that a double brood box hive requires just two Apivar strips.
I have never used Apivar but for the record, plenty of Beeks tell me it is very good and I believe them.

 

 

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The recommend dose is two strips of apivar per brood box.

bayvarol is four per brood box.

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6 hours ago, Philbee said:

Just a note and i dont like to jump ahead of the insect discussion so the sooner the thread goes back there the better.

A big player called me a week ago to chat

He was interested in comparing prices of Apivar against Staples etc

Im cagey about getting too deep into these types of discussions.

He maintained, and Im in no position to debate the issue, that a double brood box hive requires just two Apivar strips.
I have never used Apivar but for the record, plenty of Beeks tell me it is very good and I believe them.

 

 

i've watched and engaged in a few discussions on this front.

Often comes down to what people mean by a single or double brood box. I've heard people argue strongly that two boxes beneath an excluder with 14 frames of stores and six (and reducing into winter) of brood is double brood and needs four strips while those on the other side suggest that six frames of brood must be one brood box at most and could maybe even get away with one strip as six frames is only half a brood box really. I mean, i'd choose two strips in this situation, but thought that the variety of definition in play might be interesting or useful to you.

Edited by tommy dave
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18 minutes ago, tommy dave said:

i've watched and engaged in a few discussions on this front.

Often comes down to what people mean by a single or double brood box. I've heard people argue strongly that two boxes beneath an excluder with 14 frames of stores and six (and reducing into winter) of brood is double brood and needs four strips while those on the other side suggest that six frames of brood must be one brood box at most and could maybe even get away with one strip as six frames is only half a brood box really. I mean, i'd choose two strips in this situation, but thought that the variety of definition in play might be interesting or useful to you.

One must always consider the opportunity for the Brood nest to move away from the strips IMO.
I advocate for a system that snookers the Queen.
 

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57 minutes ago, Philbee said:

One must always consider the opportunity for the Brood nest to move away from the strips IMO.
I advocate for a system that snookers the Queen.
 

agree completely, simply noting that the way we interpret the terms used, e.g. "brood nest", can influence our answers => need to get that sorted before answering questions or judging approaches being taken

 

Edited by tommy dave

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Read the label on the packet. It clearly states FOB = frames of bees NOT frames of brood. So if you have (in the case of Apivar) 5 Frames Of Bees or less then use one strip, 6-10 Frames Of Bees the use two strips. Brood box is the terminology to describe where the treatments are placed not to decide how much brood there is.

 

image.thumb.jpg.bd22145b4433dda5299f174a6c214bdf.jpg

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I couldn’t find the answer here to the below: Possibly not an important detail but I have no lab or chemical training - how are people mixing the Oa?

 

I mix them together cold then stir while heating. Is this the best way? The image posted a while back of a face mask covered in Oa is what I’m keen to avoid.

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10 hours ago, dansar said:

Read the label on the packet. It clearly states FOB = frames of bees NOT frames of brood. So if you have (in the case of Apivar) 5 Frames Of Bees or less then use one strip, 6-10 Frames Of Bees the use two strips. Brood box is the terminology to describe where the treatments are placed not to decide how much brood there is.

 

image.thumb.jpg.bd22145b4433dda5299f174a6c214bdf.jpg

Anyway you read that is 4 strips per double brood box ? If you only put them in one box would it be in the top or bottom box 

 

Be a huge saving for a big outfit but you would have to think it’s a first step on the resistance path - zero science behind my statement but as honey prices drop so does return per hive and the one way to save (in the short term) is reduce your mite treatment costs

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1 minute ago, cBank said:

I couldn’t find the answer here to the below: Possibly not an important detail but I have no lab or chemical training - how are people mixing the Oa?

 

I mix them together cold then stir while heating. Is this the best way? The image posted a while back of a face mask covered in Oa is what I’m keen to avoid.

Same method that I use and most I would say, I wouldn’t want to drop oxalic into heated glycerine

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With Apivar being in for 10 weeks, shifting the strips so it remains where the actual brood frames is part of the process.

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